[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop NKK often think breeding koi is like breeding dogs, cats and horses -- probably because they don't understand (or haven't thought about): 1. koi math 2. individual identification 3. championship potential 4. parent sets 5. flock spawning factor 6. varieties vs. breeds 1. For example, a medium-sized koi breeder might have: 10 parent sets @ 500,000 eggs per set = 5,000,000 eggs 50% hatch rate = 2,500,000 fry 99% cull rate (to food, fertilizer, bait) leaves = 25,000 tateshita 90% sold cheap (pond grade, etc.) leaves = 2,500 tosai 90% sold in fall, leaving = 250 tategoi to overwinter 90% sold in spring, leaving = 25 to go to mud pond as nisai 2. Whether your ***** pups in the closet or your mare foals in the pasture, you're not going to have any trouble visually identifying the respective relationships betwixt the two; not so with koi. With valuable mammals, photos, tattoos, implanted chips and such can identify the individual and the breeder long after they've been sold; not so with koi. 3. With valuable mammals, championship potential can be identified early on, and its potential can be realized pretty much irregardless of who buys and raises it; not so with koi. Husbandry skills over 5-11 years will determine whether a koi reaches its potential. 4. With valuable mammals, a female is bred by a male when she comes into heat or artificial insemination can be used; not so with koi. Koi spawn once a year and multiple males are utilized in a parent set to insure that the eggs are fertilized. (There goes the old pedigree chart!) 5. If the koi flock-spawn (multiple females & multiple males), all bets on parentage and/or potential are off. 6. With valuable mammals, the lines breed true; not so with koi varieties. Breed a parent set of sanke and you'll get an admixture of types and varieties. Lots and lots and lots of different kinds. Hopes this helps to explain some of the differences in re: what you're used to.

Yep Don, your post does explain ALOT in the differences between breeding mammals vs. fish, and the resultant difficulty in breeding koi true to the type of themselves and their progenitors. The sheer number of koi offspring is staggering to say the least (imagine having to name each of those that make the cut of end-culling in order to create a pedigree!).

Still, it would be interesting to make the attempt to genetically stamp in a type through an even tighter breeding practice. I realize that multiple males are required to cover as much spawn as possible and that using only one male would only cover a smaller percentage of eggs. Would this be so bad? At least the genetic pool would be limited to two koi and their ancestors. Even though the number of offspring would be smaller with the diversity the same (in the beginning), some intensive line-breeding/in-breeding and stringent culling could be done in order to strengthen certain characteristics in future generations.

Having done intensive line-breeding and in-breeding in mammals and avian species, I understand fully how this can lock in both good or detrimental characteristics, how culling is crucial to this process, and when outcrossing is demanded to stabilize the line. Too much in-breeding (brother/sister, father/daughter, etc.) can intensify a desired type, but can also intensify faults--even the best of the best through these pairings can and does affect size at the very least (there are many more things that come into play here). Still, what results from such stringent breeding is strong, prepotent genes that dominate outcrosses.

In the end, should this kind of practice be a successful venture in koi breeding, would it create cookie-cutter koi and make values plummet? I don't think so. Any animal with multiple colors and patterning will produce multiple colored/patterned offspring in an individually unique way. For example, breeding Paint horses, even intensely in-bred or line-bred, will not always produce the same pattern or even shade of coloring. Breeding a Medicine Hat paint to another Medicine Hat paint will not necessarily produce another MH, and if it does, the markings will still be different. What will usually breed true in this instance? Body conformation. This makes for a wonderful pallet to put colors and patterns on and you'd think that would be desirable in koi. Still, even equine conformation can be confounded by poor husbandry, just like it is with koi.

Eventually, once I've saturated myself with knowledge of koi types and husbandry, I may experiment with breeding outside the norm to see if I can sort through all the dominant and recessive genes that make up certain types of koi. I realize this could take years with no guarantees of success. Still, the journey would be fascinating even if the destination is unsure or ends up a total washout.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained....

Marie