Ok, Finally getting back to this one...1st... Please look closer at the ZNA graph I posted. Conformation is ~50% of the total "score" at a show, but only at a certain size. Approximately 18-20". Smaller than that, conformation is not as important than pattern and larger than that, confomation is more important. This is of course a generalization, and the other factors, or any outstanding factor can tip the balance. For me an appropriate Body is always important, as I mentioned. Please also recognize that when talking to any one person, you are always getting their views. Maybe the real standard is somewhere in the middle. Body and skin are especially important to me, but to another pattern may be most important. Judges are trained to be "unbiased", but I think it is impossible to not pay some attention to what makes a koi best to each person. There is a little "extra credit' given if your eye can respond to it. It may be this part that you are not able to see what others see. It is almost "invisible" to the "uninitiated". There is always a large part of judging koi that is subjective. "
Aye mate, and there's the rub." Thnx to Jim North for pointing me to his site. Perhaps he can post the pictures and link to the earlier thread on conformation here on Koi Bito from last April. While the measurements are a helpful guideline, but it is the subjective part that makes it so difficult. Some very learned people depend on those measurements, but I wish it were that simple for me. The we could just measure the fish and declare which has the superior conformation.
But this difficulty also is one thing (of many) that make koi so fascinating, and addicting. Grasshoppa, please don't ask for it so fast anymore. Stay on task and subject. There is no way of getting this by osmosis that I know of. That is the reason many people save outstanding posts. Many times, for me, it has not been the initial reading of what was written when the point got through to me, but sometimes years later when I was ready to accept or learn it. Then when I reread the info, sometimes stumbling across it by accident, I would have an "aha" moment. Each lesson needs that particular "lightbulb" to go on b4 one is ready for the next one. Any other quick way of learning this seems to be a bit like a single layer of paint over a room where the walls are not solid. (Does this sound like a discussion of Beni to anyone?? LOL.. I need to get a life
Hi Kathy!
) It looks good at first, but b4 too long the weakness will show through. I think learning about koi is very similar. Slow down and walk the walk for a while.
We will help you as best we can. This brings to mind a suggestion my wife had for me to help this situation. If you PM me an address you can get mail at, I will lend you an appropriate book like Koi Kichi. Kokugyo is a very good book too, but pretty advanced. I absolutely think you need it in your library with your stated goals in koi, but first things first. You keep trying to run b4 you walk. Smell the roses. Do you hear what I am saying?
Your koi with the gills 'exposed". The way you describe it, your koi would not be competitive in most cases. Depends on the competition that day. It is seen by many judges as an automatic "disqualification" though. I tend to try and judge every fish if people took the effort to bring it.
I have a number of pictures to post as I assemble a better visual side to the study of conformation. In the meantime, visit as many dealers as you can. Talk to them. See their fish. Look for the living examples of the lessons you have learned. But be respectful. There seems to be a theme.
As an aside, JR has just posted some very good things about conformation on the NI BBS. Please follow that discussion closely grasshoppa. Maybe he is reading this? or perhaps my mind.
My "mind" is/was typically a much shorter read than his post, so thnx to him for "fleshing it out" I take total credit
NOT. Here is that post.
Body types continued Posted by James P on 10/16/2006, 1:08 pm
User logged in as: JR 205.188.117.9 Body types Been business over the last few days and not had a lot of time to post on the internet. I wanted to respond however to a few of the comments about conformation standard for shape and proportion and this idea that there is a subjective element to conformation based on gosanke lines. All varieties have unique and different body shape. There is not restricted to just matsunosuke fish! For instance, ogon have a fuller robust body that other hikari moyo of hariwaki types. And ochiba have changed from ogon body type to kohaku body type as they were ‘invented’ yet another way with other crosses over the last decade. So ‘body type’ is not the same thing as conformation proportions. The ZNA standards created by the judging committee many years ago are for training and study. Their focus is on ideal proportions and relationships between tail and tail tube- tail tube and body- shoulders and head etc. It is also a standard for ADULT koi. I also think several might be confused about matsunosuke body type. Because this is an easy body type to detect , some might think that it is an enduring shape? It is not. Except for older males, the extreme matsunosuke is not the finished fish! The fished fish is a well proportioned animal. If you recall my very classic matsunosuke goromo, I will post a before and after photo of the fish as a young show fish and then as an old adult. It is very educational. I would remind the reader that nishikigoi are judged in three phases regarding conformation. 1) the juvenile stage- a ‘baby’ shape. The fish’s bodies are not looked at as miniatures of adults. This is because baby fish are shaped like– well– baby fish! Therefore we look for proportion and normal shape for fish this age. The fins are proportional to the body, the tail tube is proportion to the body type. The height to body length is proportional with the understanding of the fish’s age and body type. Male bodies are not necessarily preferred by with color development favoring the male fish, the normal male body is perfectly acceptable ( and often the difference between male body and female body are undetectable at this size/age) . 2) the sub adult- the fish should be still growing and have some ‘puppy traits’ and still be of a normal development. Certain defects that are difficult to detect or ‘call’ as a juvenile should now become important. Since the bone structure is beyond fry development, the body shape is becoming more three dimension- the triangular should, for instance is now coming on. 3) the mature adult- now the female conformation becomes the dominating force. Bone structure is peaked as have the four muscle quadrants. Males can’t hold up against the impression of body line exhibited by the females. a) older mature adults- certain deterioration/ over growth of bone is to be expected at this age and again allowances are made for these realities. But creeping in defects are judged.