[schildkoi]

Quote: Do all people keep their ponds spotless? No. You are absolutely correct. Am I agreeing with you on your comments on smooth liner, algae, and biofilm? Yes. You're right on the money.

If you are agreeing, then why the fuss previously and on your website about the misleading effects of added surface area for biofilm on gravel bttomed ponds?

Quote: Stepping back for a moment and looking at the aquarium industry. Aquariums require monthly cleaning. Most people that have them do the cleaning themselves, or hire it done - but it still gets done on the majority of aquaiums. Do some aquaium owners neglect this? Sure they do. Does this mean an aquarium system manufacturer, or retailer should stop selling aquariums?

John, comparing aquarium cleaning to that of a pond is apples and oranges. The amount of effort from one to the other offers no real comparison. For a pond, the ease of maintenance is just as if not lore important than the actual function of such since if its easy, it gets doen and done more regularly than a system that is difficult to maintain.

Quote: Step forward again. You are absolutely right on all your points about gravel - I'm not disagreeing with you - I am pointing out that if the gravel is kept clean like that of aquariums it can be beneficial to pond - if nothing else than cosmeticaly.

John, this is where the fundemental disagreement is. The gravel will not be kept clean, between algae and waste, there is no benefit, not even cosmetically. I would challenge anyone to find anywhere near a substantial number of these ponds that are kept clean.

Quote: So where does this leave us? As a manufacture of filtration systems, and to all the dealers and contractors that sell our products - do they stop selling outdoor aquarium type Hybid ponds?

Basically, as they are now, yes, if they are advocating Koi to be put into them.

Quote: We as resposible citizens can do our best at the manufacturing level, the wholesale level, and the retail level to provide the best products, service, information, and education to the end-using public - but beyond that....what can be done?

John, based soley on your website, you have a little more learning to do in order to understand the design concepts that you operate with are not and never will be acceptable for Koi. Once you come to that same conclusion and begin to educate your customers, you will be in a much better position.

Quote: Inviting koi clubs AND water garden clubs into our stores to learn from each other is a crutial part of the KKF/RWG partnership. Sharing information is the essence of learning.

No doubt here John, but the learning will only go as far as the knowledge base of the teachers, currently a shortcoming it would appear.

Quote: None of us can force people to clean their ponds - and none of us can force what type of pond people to have. This is a free country, people like making their own choices. We can, however, work together to find the best solutions to the problems that can and do arise.

You are making my point for me John. Since we can'tforce people to keep their ponds clean, we should be providing designs that take this into account and make it easier to maintain, unlike what you are currently advocating.

Quote: "Fluffing" a quarter of you pond's gravel each week takes about 5 minutes. The marjority of R&G Hybrid ponds are not larger than 25'x25' (625 square feet) - so "fluffing" a 10'x15' (150 sq.ft.) section is super easy.

Hmmm, 5 minutes to "fluff" huh. I thought earlier you mentioned also using a pond vac as fluffed? I am thinking 5 minutes is more than just a tad optomistic.

Quote: Saying that even a "pet grade" koi will definitely harm itself on a rock in the pond is like saying a dog will definitely hurt itself on a tree in the backyard, or a cat on a table leg. Can these things happen, yes. I've seen our cats chase each other through the house and run head-first into the dining room table leg. Same thing with my brother's dog chasing a Robin - ran smack into a tree. So, should I get rid of my dining room table and my brother chop down his trees? Same can be said of rocks with koi. Remember, virtually all aquariums around the world have rocks together with fish - there is no denying that fact. So why would it be OK for aquariums from gold fish tanks to commercial shark reefs to mix rocks and fish but not koi?

John, I never said a koi would "definitely" injure themselves on rocks. Jagged rocks increase this risk however as does shollow ponds since the flight response of the Koi is limited. In additon, we are talking Koi which typically grow in excess of 24 inches when supplied a proper environemnt. These are NOT aquarium fish and the graval and or rock proportionally sized to that of a Koi in a Koipond and the volume involved is totally different.

Quote: What we have to look at is what would cause the koi to run into the rock. Usually its a result of "flashing". Flashing, as you all know, is a result of irritants on the koi's skin or gills. You people are the experts at knowing about salting and such. So if we make sure that water plants are treated for parasites prior to introducing them into a pond with koi, maintaining .03% salt will help dehydrate many parasites while not harming most plants, keeping the surfaces of the pond clean - liner or gravel - and keeping our filters free of detritus so they can do their job of removing ammonia - we are all moving in the right direction. This is "old news" to you people I know - but the majority has not been exposed to this - and this is my mission.

Ahhh John, you advocate maintaining .3% salt? You do realize that salt itself is an irratant to koi, right? Its benefits are greatly exagerated and there isn't a common parasite that effects koi that wouldn't laugh at .3% Likewise it has little effect on most common forms of algae. Flashing, even in a healthy pond is more likely due to changes in the photosynthisis process during early morning and late afternoon due to algae growth, more common and more abundent in shallower ponds as a percent to total volume.

Quote: Someone earlier made a comment about the people here on this forum make up a very small percentage of the koi owners in this country. The majority of people that simply want koi in a pond that looks like part of the landscape. So I as a business man, I know the value of information from the experts such as yourselves - and adapting that information to fit the majority market. People can agree or disagree with that statement - but at least I'm honest about it. I truely believe that trying to improve the products and services from within a market is the best method to keeping more fish alive. Trying to eliminate the market hasn't worked, will not work, and only alienates people. So with your help - we'll be able to change it from within.

John, I have no problem with your vision as stated. I have't evaluated any of your products either. This isn't really about them, its about the design in which you install those products, a group of designs that all need some work.

Quote: If you look around the country, and view other forums - you'll see that my constant talking about backflushing, cleaning gravel, and SSA is taking hold. It never has before. Never before has anyone, or any company caused an shift in the tone or the R&G industry. We've got a long way to go - and so I'll just keep on keepin on.

John, please do not lure yourself into a false sense of security in any "improvements" you think you have. From what I can gather based on your writings and website, your thoughts on SSA is not totally accurate, nor is your thoughts on gravel or cleaning.

Quote: So how can we combine what you people know into what the majority wants? Thats what I'm trying to do.....with your help of course. Thanks again. Sincerely, John Russell

Kinda simple John, Educate people what koi are and what environmental requirements they have. Then utilize simple koi pond design criteria such as bottom drains, turn over rates etc and lose the graval.

Steve
Last edited by John Russell : 1 Hour Ago at 06:37 AM. Reason: text

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