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Thread: bakki towers

  1. #101
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    thanks mike M,
    for saying what you did regarding mike and carl. I've been designing a pvc rack to hold some rubbermaid totes so that when the media gets in
    I have a home to house it!
    Happy new year yourself!

  2. #102
    Jumbo
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    Hi Mike S. , Just read your response this moment and you did indeed give me a smile on New Years!
    Molassas? a material made form sweet veggie and fruit juice.
    DOCs? large molecules that incorporate nutrient elements. Carbohydrates, mostly sugars and starches, proteins and amino acids and organic acids!

    So no matter what the source- filter starter, excesss feeding, over stocking or a general build up in the closed system- DOCs are DOCs and they ain't being removed here! And they are being 'beaten' out of solution by teh aeration and mechanical action. If the molasses is building foam then so is the other DOC content from fish slime, feces and undigested food particles. They ARE being diluted by every one of those green hoses on all the new ponds putting new water in on a constant basis.

    I'm really starting to wonder if this is a big step forward for the hobby or a big step backwards? JR

  3. #103
    Tosai
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    Radiation stuff

    Because this is a "hot subject", I took some time to look into this science.

    Here is my take on it.

    All the various bioceramics, meaning the bakki shower ceramic, bioglass, Siporax, etc., can apparently absorb and emit radiation. I am fairly certain lava rock does that also, but have no "scientific proof" of that yet.

    Please notice the bakki shower folks are keeping their bakki showers fairly "shallow" so light can get to the media. Please notice they are running them in greenhouses with light coming in from a variety of angles to the bakki showers.

    So if there IS anything to the far infrared radiation making better water quality, you need those bakki showers and other forms of trickle tower filters to be "open sided" and in full sunlight as much as possible. That will allow the ceramics, or lava rock, to absorb radiation during the day to do better filtration, and emit the radiation it has absorbed during the night to continue the "good effect".

    Furthermore, the more light that can get to the media through the sides of the showers, the better they should absorb radiation from the Sun to be able to emit it. So make those trickle towers and bakki showers with sides that let light through.

    Anyway, after reading lots of stuff in lots of places, that is my take on it.

  4. #104
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    Good lord!!

    ( I know, I shouldn't say a further word! ) JR

  5. #105
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hi JR,

    I appreciate that putting molasses into the pond is basically putting a compound into the water that becomes dissolved. But, this is an intentional addition. As for the foam you saw... do you really think that that much foam would appear in a pond that had only been running for a week?

    I understand your concerns, but you haven't tried the systems, so all you can do is stick to your theories... fair enough.

    Lets forget Momotaro's ponds for the moment, and remember that there are ponds in England running on Showers, and recap...

    DOC's will register in a TDS reading. Most closed circuit ponds will have a TDS reading that is far higher than the fresh water that is being added to the pond. This indicates that the pond is overfed, overstocked, or just lacking in maintenance.

    Accumulated waste in a system will breed bad bacteria, create excess ammonia, and cause faster depletion of KH levels.

    So, first lets look at Colin Hughes pond. He lives in Swansea, Wales. Mains water TDS is about 50ppm, and pond TDS runs between 70 and 80ppm. Prior to switching to Bakki Showers, Colin could not maintain a stable pH, and KH levels kept falling, necessitating the addition of Bicarb, and the use of Lithaqua. Ammonia levels (albiet low) were always present. Since the big switch, Colin has never added Bicarb, and has removed the Lithaqua. His KH level now sits at 1.5dh, which is only a little lower than the mains water, and Ammonia levels are now undetectable. Water clarity is better than ever, and there is no colour at all to the water. There is no skimmer, and there is no foam on the pond, despite the showers returning as two waterfalls.

    Ian Graham... he had two trickle towers before on his pond, in addition to two parallel filter systems. One of the towers also had an add-on extension. Ian used to experience many health problems with his Koi. He now runs three sets of Showers, and no other filtration. Health problems are a thing of the past according to Ian. Even when Koi jump out and hit his statues into the pond (during a power cut), the Koi needed no treatment for injuries, they just mend themselves. Ian's surface skimmer is broken since the Koi snapped of the flap. So, he now has no skimmer. Yet, he has no foam or brown water either. Ian is so happy with his pond, that he now now built a new pond for growing Tosai. This pond is 3800 gallons, and has two sets of Showers connected directly to the drains (no settlement). The pond matured within five weeks. (ammonia an nitrite cycles). Neither pond has a UV.

    Cliff Neale put two sets onto his 18,000 gallon pond. He was so happy with the improved water quality and clarity, that he added two more sets. He was so happy with that, that he then built an 8000 gallon pond running solely Bakki Showers. He was so happy with this that he then built another Bakki Showered pond of 2000 gallons. Cliff's ponds have no foam, and no brown colour to the water. He has no UV's on the new ponds.

    Craig Attwood put a set onto his 5000 gallon pond. He was so happy, that he added another set, and removed his previous filtration. He has no foam

    Keith Harris put a set onto his 1700 gallon pond, as sole filtration. He had constant nitrite problems with his filter system. This system matured within 5 weeks, has no skimmer, no foam, and no brown water. The pond is open air.

    James Cater saw Ian's pond, and was so impressed that he built a 10,000 gallon pond, solely Showered. Jon Mak did the same. Bothe are ecstatic with their ponds. Both have no foam or brown water... but it's early days.

    Maurice has a set. He was hoping to create bubbles just like the ones he saw at Momotaro, as he thought that he could bottle it and sell it to children. So far, Maurice is devastated.

    My 4400 gallon pond has two sets. It also has no UV, and no skimmer (I took thge collar off). It also has no foam. TDS rund at 115ppm at present, and Koi have consistently grown at 1cm per week in this pond. Current stocking level is about 250 Koi of up to 34cm, from about 20cm. This year, I have not injected a single Koi. And, in the event of a Koi jumping out, I just throw the Koi back in... it heals every time. If Koi become damaged by netting, or hitting the showers, I just watch them for a couple of days until the damage fixes itself.

    Clearwater Koi have a set. Wayne loves it. I have no more info than this though. Sorry.

    Mark Gardner has a set, but it's to soon to tell.

    Dave Palmer put a set onto his 13,000 gallon pond, as he was fed up with green water, blanket weed, and not being able to see his Koi. He is a happy man, and can see his Koi. Blanketweed receeded quickly after fitting the system, but I would expect that with any trickle filter.

    Bob Hancock came to see me saying that he was fed up with keeping Koi and was thinking of packing in. He fitted a simple trickle filter to his pond with 20kgs of media, and is now enthusiastic again.

    Numerous people have used the media submerged, even just placing it on top of existing medias. All have reported that appetites are dramatically increased, waste form in settlement has changed from solid faeces, to becoming as pile of dust.

    Every person that has used the media has noticed an increase in appetite, not just in showers.

    Mr Chen from Taiwan, who in my eyes iis the best dealer in the World outside Japan, tried other medias in Showers, including a Chinese equivalent to Bacteria House. Mr Chen told me in October that the oother media didn't work, only Bacteria House worked.

    As far as FIR goes, I can post up other links to web sites, including NASA. But, there is no point in this, as I am not a scientist, and cannot prove such widespread claims. All I can do, is tell people what my experiences with the systems are... sorry to disappoint.

    Momotaro. All I can say is that they have produced the biggest Tosai, Nisai, Sansai, Yonsai, and Gosai of any breeder, year after year. They have thoroughly tested this media, and it has cost them an absolute fortune to change to it. Would they really sacrifice even one centimetre per year for the sake of making money from this media? Maybe. But, they also add OMX (lactic acid bacteria) to their ponds, which costs them a fortune. Do they sell it?... no. Could they sell it?... probably.

    So, all I can say is that if I cast aside all of the theories that people have about filtration, do the systems work? Ask those that use them, or try them yourself to prove them wrong.

    One last note in ref to Cliff Neale. He bought a Momotaro Sansai Kohaku from me last year (March) at 61cm. This Spring, he expressed his disappointment that the Koi hadn't grown. In Autumn this year, I took a group of "Koichat" member's to Cliff's pond. We measured Koi, and the Kohaku had grown to 63cm. Three weeks later, it was 65cm. We also measured numerous other Koi that had never grown... thay had all grown! Cliff then put some five year old Koi (previously non-growers) into his new 8000 gallon showered pond. Two weeks later, he pulled three Koi up... all had grown 2cm. Spooky stuff isn't it, must be the aliens.

    Ian, Cliff, and Colin are now striving to grow a Go-Sanke from Tosai, to over 80cm in their Showered ponds. One of these Koi will be over 80cm before it's 6th Birthday, and I promise to prove it.

    Best regards,

    Mike.

  6. #106
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hi again Roddy,

    I'm a slow typer!

    I appreciate your thoughts on the FIR with the Showers... fair comment. But, they have now switched from four shallow filled trays, to three deeper filled trays. Only the very top layer gets hit by the light, so if you remove a green piece, the piece underneath is clean. Also, in submerged form, in dark filter bays, it still seems to make the Koi hungrier. Think of it, what you will. ;-)

    One final note in response to an earlier question a few days ago... the systems seem to get dirty for the first two months, but only the top layer of the top tray. After this time, the media slowly becomes cleaner and cleaner. This has happened in every case. It seems as though once the systems mature properly, the bacteria develps even more, and gets to work on the 'backlog' of dirt. Just a though, no science as evidence.

    Best rgds,

    Mike.

  7. #107
    Tategoi
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    I am curious if this media works better or worse with dirty water flowing to it. I'm guessing that water that has been mechanically filtered is still better and may not need the lactic acid goo.

    JR, I've noticed in the past that you always ask to see someones fish when comparing filtration and/or feeding methods. Maeda-san uses fairly unconventional methods in these respects BUT the quality of his fish certainly speaks well of those same methods. Is this genetics alone, or, theory aside, could there be something to the madness of his methods?

    Open systems have been done before, and generally produce very good results. But those Momotaro fish seem to exceed expectations at every turn. Can you explain why? And would that explanation exclude any effects from Maeda-san's choices in pond design? To put it another way: are the Momotaro fish improved or held back by this oddball filtration?

  8. #108
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    RoddyC: I think you are assuming the media would not become covered with algae? Why wouldn't it?

    MikeS: That's a lot of ponds! I'm looking forward to the summer '04 status report.

    JR: Happy New Year! ... With this topic we will have at least 6 months of interesting debate. And, while you are re-assembling the brain cells from contemplating infra-red rays, lava rock, lactic acid molasses and the effect of sunlight on trickle towers, don't forget the possibility (from last Sept I think it was) of electrical charges being generated when water is forced through tiny pores at great pressure. :lol: It's going to be a great year. And, when somebody figures out how it all works, it will get even better.

  9. #109
    Jumbo
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    Mike, thanks for the response. Koi will grow better with maximum oxygen and maximim gas exchange. I have no idea what these individuals had started with so I can't account for their improved experience except to say that wet/dry filter systems quickly made in aquarium undergravel filters obsolete in that trade. TTs and wet/drys will likely cut way into the BB and gravel system business once people see the benefits of high degassing and oxygenation. I would need to know the designs they have abandoned, the physical size of the filters etc. I would also need to see ORP readings and oxygen levels over the bad and good periods.
    you need to reconcile the fact that momotaro has been culling down 700,000 offspring to a few hundred and selecting for jumbo genetics for a dozen years now. If you put that genetics into a poor environment it will be defeated. Improve conditions and nature wil take it's course.
    Here are some hard questions for you. WHEN did Momotaro begin using bacteria house? When were the Showers installed on the 1500 and the 5000 gallon ponds? When were the plants removed from the various indoor and outdoor systems? JR

  10. #110
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hi JR,

    In ref to your comment about bad environment holding back the genetics of Koi... I couldn't agree more!

    Momotaro have been using Bacteria House for about three years now. Bakki Showers have been on the 1500 ton pond for two years.

    The plants were removed in Spring of this year. They had a guy sub-contracted from MTK for about three months this Summer, doing experiments with hydroponics on the farm. They were trying to see what different plants thrived in water that was taken the ponds, and analysing the water too.

    One of the 500 ton ponds still has Japanese matting in place in one long submerged bay. This particular pond is having one or two problems with hikui. They reckon that this is because the matting is trapping dirt. But, it will cost them 3 million yen to change this bay over to Bacteria House.

    Removed equipment... Please take note!... The main reason Ian abandoned his system is because when Daisuke Maeda visited his pond in March this year, Ian felt excited about Showered filtration. Pond is 6500 gallons. None of the following were removed because of individual inadequacies...

    Anyhow... two bottom drains, one to a Vetex system, and the other to a 911 system. (3 bays each bank). One EA vortex, with Answer 410. Two Hydrocleans. One 3/4hp pump, and one 1hp pump (needed to power hydrocleans). One ozone unit. I said two earlier, but in fact, three trickle towers, two had extensions. One fluidised bed filter. One Hiblow 80, and a 40 were also removed, and two 55W UVs.

    He now has three Sequence 1/4+ pumps, one Hiblow 80, and one Seq 750 for additional circulation. Filtration is two empty vortexes (that are pumped too fast to catch waste), and three sets of Showers containing a total of 180kgs of media.

    I kinda dreaded you would ask what he had before, but now you know. I am a little nervous about this, which is why I haven't put such info on my website. I prefer to let Ian tell people what he removed, and why.

    Mike.

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