bakki towers

[dick benbow]

Jason,
Ken at Eastern uses a bakki shower with bio balls and is very pleased with the results. My koi kichi Bill B. was down there a few months ago and said the water and koi looked first rate.
i don't see any reason why you couldn't get the system up and running with something and then later add some BH material and see what difference you experience!

JR,
the reason I asked about having an open pond is over the last few years I have not fought parasite problems with my koi when they are inside and the sytem is closed to the elements. I move them outside and within 6 weeks they have flukes. I believe they are introduced to the water outside
by birds who love to come and bath in my pond. now with your comments
I'm wondering what the reason is which I may have placed on the birds unfairly.

[shiromujigirl]

If we are going to look at TDS as you define it Mike, don't we have to look at oxygen levels too? Because a saturated o2 level can mitigate somewhat some of the components of high TDS, ie, organics.

[Mike Snaden]

Hi Shiromuji,

Just supposing that oxygen were included in a TDS reading, it would only represent the DO level present, ie perhaps a max of 8ppm, so is insignificant.

As far as Oxygen reducing organics etc... no, oxidising organics won't affect the TDS reading at all. If you potassium a pond and blitz the organic loading, the TDS will remain exactly the same. The only way of lowering it, is to dilute is with water of a lower TDS. Boy, am I going to get in trouble for spending so much time here! ;-)

Mike.

[Mike Snaden]

Hi again,

5% twice weekly would maintain a pond like my 8000 one ok. But, the TDS of this pond is about 200ppm, which is too high to grow Koi properly. It's enough to feed them enough to keep them in good shape, but that's all. This is with conventional filtration. If I wanted to use this pond for growing Koi big, then I would want to get the TDS down to a maximum of 100ppm. So, even with conventional filtration, 5% wouldn't be enough for my liking.

TDS... anything that gets dissolved into the water... minerals, uneaten food, fish waste, additives, and basically anything organic.

Mike.

[Roddy Conrad]

The reason I mentioned a page or so back about the far infrared rays is that is a hot subject related to bakki showers.

Certainly koi who have no sunlight, and no artificial sunlight, perish in an indoor pond.

There are a number of sources unrelated to koi ponding that say bioceramics can emit far infrared radiation, and that far infrared radiation has a variety of healing powers, including making the clusters of molecules in water smaller, thus making water "more active".

My point was that IF far infrared radiation is something that helps bakki showers work, then maximizing sunlight on the bakki showers will make them work better that way. Whether the Japanese who are developing Bakki shower technology realize this or not while redesigning their trays is irrelevant to the discussion. Many folks who do research and development go in the "wrong direction" for a while before deciding to retrace their steps.

While writing to this thread, I do have a simple question for JR, if he doesn't mind. JR wrote a lot on this thread about his koi pond system. My question is a simple one! How many koi of what size does JR maintain in that 7500 gallon koi pond system? That makes a huge difference to some arguments at times.

[shiromujigirl]

What fun! Of course o2 level has no effect on the mineral portion of TDS.

My line of thinking is that if you have a lot of organics decomposing in the water column AND your dominant filter species is heterotrophic, you had better max the 02 because these conditions use a lot of O2. Total Dissolved Organics is a better test for that dynamic, don't you think?

In my tests at Area 51, if the stuff ever gets here, I plan on doing another study after the first on catching BH and lava rock both in the act of cycling and and trying to prove heterotrophic dominance in what is happening to the poop.

I am going then going to run two cycled BH systems, overflow to waste various amounts starting at 10% a day on one and the usual 20% a week all at once water change an American koi keeper makes (if they are enlightened at all, and few are). Again, the parameters to test will total dissolved organics and ORP.

Really, I don't think people having other kinds of filters with Bakki Showers are good test ponds nor do I think people overflowing a lot of water are good to gather data from.

I am probably the queen of the semi open system here, on my own ponds I overflow a total of 33% to 66% of system volume a day. You don't really need a filter at all when you overflow that much. Brett says you can overflow half the total volume of your pond a day even with decent stocking levels and not need a filter at all. I am overflowing 12,000 gallons in 24 hours on a 12,000 gallon system for a 66% daily gradual water change. I can overflow 6000 gallons and get a 33% water change and not need a filter at all. So what is a 10% overflow water change on a shower system doing? A lot, probably.

[shiromujigirl]

Actually, my experiment with the Lava Rock against Bacteria House could have a profound effect effect on TDS. I enclose this quote from Aquaticeco System's tech board:

"For removing more difficult iron, the aerated water may be passed over coarse contact media (lava, stones, coke, etc.) in a multilevel tray. The media soon becomes coated with iron hydroxide, which promotes catalytic precipitation
of iron and manganese from the water".

[James P]

Bingo SMG, I didn't want to pile on Mike so I only asked him what he defined Total dissolved solids as . He got it on the nose when he included minerals. One can make very broad assumptions from TDS but the conclusions drawn can be misleading depending on the mineral content of the fresh water verses the circulating water.
Trusting ones eye and the change of conditions over time can be a very valuable thing. String algae, slime algae etc can be very helpful in detemining nutrient content. This photo shows that some nutrient is trapped in the wet/dry arrangement of Bacteria House. Not the end of the world but a hint as to what is really going on. This is on a semi open system. JR

[Mike Mazur]

Well it seems that a major concern is for the quality of the water coming out of the showers. Also of concern is wether or not this magic media does the trick. All things being equal ia also extremely critical. Here I am possibly providing a simple solution to test the effects of this media versus others. To try to create a set of ponds with equal paramaters for side by side testing is leaving a lot to chance. Why not start with a single large pond say ten thousand gallons. of course it would have the bottom drain and fish at a decent stocking level. First test period to be determined possibly two month in an indoor controlled environment with supplimental lighting to keep the day length out of the equation as the test proceeds to the next one. From the pickup I would have the water split three ways and made sure it was even through a flow meter to all three outlets. Each outlet would have its own shower each with a different media. As the water exits the shower it should be read via electronic meters for all the parameters important to Koi and their keepers. After the initial readings are logged and over the two month period changes could be made to the system- changes being the addition of a skimmer; The addition of water changes can also be a step. Since it has been mentioned we might as well just shut the system down for a bit and let high rate waterchanges take care of the whole thing. A lot of work and some expensive testing equipment but theese are the variables we face to get a true blind effect this is what level must be attained. As for the different medias out there this test could easily expand to more showers each with its own media. Heck I bet kaldnes would even flourish in this setup not as a nock to kaldnes as this is my media of choice. Plastic makes it possible!

[shiromujigirl]

What else could you want Mr. Manzur? Youv'e got me testing for heterotroph dominance and the dilution factor. Youve got Griff testing for heat influences on three different kinds of medias and Roark testing for Far Infrared with his high tech lab. All people with no commercial interest, that is the ticket. We will then see if we can replicate the others results in our garage, third floor and Area 51 labs. That is how western science is done. Not to be rude to Mr. Snaden or Mr. Forss, who obviously believe in this technology.

Now, your idea I must shoot holes all in because you are talking about at some point a cycled mature system with a huge biofilm on the pond walls. You want to throw in with that aspect of the research? Come on!