bakki towers

[Mike Snaden]

Hi Roddy,

I completely agree with you about the pheromone levels, although I tend to look at TDS levels myself. But then, reduce the TDS using fresh water, and pheromones will be reduced anyway. As for Nitrates... over here, nitrate levels are often higher in fresh water than they are in the pond, so massive water changes push the levels up instead of down. What's the score with mains water nitrates in the States?

I agree with you that JRs $900 a year, is a worthy investmnent!... absolutely!

Best,

Miek.

[Roddy Conrad]

Mains water in British or city tap water in American English is highly variable across the USA!

My tap water runs non-detectable nitrates, non-detectable nitrites, pH range of 6.5 to 7, alkalinity of 5 to 20 ppm, phosphate levels of 10 to 40 ppm - a phosphate compound is added to our city tap water for control of mussels in the water system. So if I change too much water, the phosphate level is more than the pond system can "absorb", and gives me all kinds of problems, especially during Summer weather. Also, water changes does only negative things for alkalinity control, since my tap water has no significant alkalinity. So I prefer to exchange only the amount of water needed for mechanical filter cleanup/purges, and take care of the pheromones by routine low level PP treatment instead, to avoid the phosphate issue that more water changes causes in my situation. My TT's normally do okay on nitrate control with very little water exchange in the Summer with nitrates below 2 ppm, but build up to mid range (~20 ppm) in the Winter when I have such a high stocking density in the indoor koi pond at ~60F water temperature.

JR presumably has alkaline water supply free of nitrates and phosphates, so has the perfect situation for a high water exchange. And, like you say, money well spent! My own water bill goes up from ~$60 per month in Winter to ~$220 per month in the three Summer ponding months. Okay, a little of that goes to swimming pool sand filter backflushes and evaporation, but the swimming pool water exchange is small compared to the ponds - 6 outdoor ponds and two indoor ponds are running all Summer, 4 to 5 ponds for koi, 2 to 3 ponds for goldfish and golden orfes.

One of my good ponder friends has been trying to convince me that spending the money to install a well for the pond water exchange would solve nearly all the water quality problems, especially the chronic phosphate issue, and save money in the long run. After thinking through the discussion on this thread, I am beginning to believe my friend is giving unusually good advice!

Of course well or borehole water has its own special problems at times. Low dissolved oxygen, possibility of hydrogen sulfide, etc. So I would pay the money to drill the well then see if the water is actually usable from it.....

Thanks for a great discussion that got me thinking in other directions, to everyone who contributed!

[Lee]

Water exchange only Nine Hundred USD annually?

What a bargain!

JR, place that same pond onto a Caribbean Island wherein the available supply of water comes from a very costly to run (petrol at over $3.00 per an Imperial gallon) desalination plant and the cost for your water exchange then quadruples...in cost.

Thank goodness for my underhouse 30,000 gallon cistern, which unfortunatly get's used up...within months. When full it is terrific value.

Sadly, however, raining season is over and it is now, empty!

And, I 'now' have to rely upon our 'very expensive' government supplied water system...

Anyway, not to lose the discussion of this very valued thread...

....Gentlemen and Ladies, does all these water exchange theories then take us 'all' back to the true importance of Mr. M's open system and focus us upon his unending source of available mountain water and the freedom to make as many water exchanges as is required via this open system?

Perhaps, it is, indeed, his open water system and this never ending supply of fresh mountain water which is the primary reason why the Bakki system and the Bacteria House works...as well as, some have herein claimed?

"Perhaps" the result of all of this long discussion only suggests that the success of Mr. M's system has nothing whatsoever to do with any other claim - other than his enviable use of fresh mountain water in unending supply?

Lee
Grand Cayman

[Roddy Conrad]

My take on the bakki showers is that it is a superior trickle tower design with a superior trickle tower media! So just so folks don't interpret my comments differently!

In fact, I plan to rebuild some of my trickle tower along the lines I see used in the bakki shower design to have trays that have more air exchange and sunlight to achieve the superior results reported by the actual bakki showers.

Sure the water exchange on some of the bakki shower demonstration ponds helps the performance, as water exchange helps the performance of any filter system on any koi pond! That does not take anything away from the performance of the bakki shower filter system.

I do sincerely appreciate all the good discussion from all the contributors. That discussion helped me rethink several aspects of koi pond filtration technology!

[shiromujigirl]

I would like to know what do you all mean by water change or dilution factor? If Colin changes 37% of pond volume a week to continuous overflow, Mr. Snaden changes 500 to 600 gallons a day on a 2400 gallon system, Mr. Maeda runs 35,000 gallons a day into the 375,000 gallon pond, and JR changes 40% a week in two 20% dosages, water change and water overflow represent different percentages of new water.

Constant running in to overflow gives a different new water volume than slam dunk water change, because some of the new water flows out too. For instance, if I overflow 12,000 gallons on a 12,000 gallon system a day, I get about a 66% replacement with new water. If I did it all at once I would have a 100% change . Are you talking about percent of the pond vloume overflowed or percent of new water? I would like to know what actual replacement with new water is Mr. Maeda doing.

[shiromujigirl]

Oh excuse me, Mr. Snaden changes 500-600 gallons a day in a 4400 gallon system I believe. Actual change or that much added and overflowed?

[MikeM]

SMG: My understanding is that the Momotaro 10% figure relates to constant new flow, not water changes. The old-style Japanese system of purging bottom water daily is somewhat equivalent to purging settlement chambers in a western system, although somewhat greater quantity seems to be typically discharged. Whether Maeda was purging bottom water as well as having continual flow is unclear to me. Both seem to be fairly commonly used in tandem in Japanese tradition from what I've been reading. Often the purging gets ignored because the constant flow provides the replacement. So, the pondkeeper does not pay so much attention to the amount of discharge, just the amount of in-flow. It could well be that part of the 10% is "water change" and part is constant flow dilution .... Maybe Brian can clarify on the routines at Momotaro. At least until the latest idea of getting rid of matting etc to feed BS, I'd be surprised if bottom water was not being purged because it is so ordinary a daily practice among upper tier Japanese koikeepers for past 15+ years.

[Lee]

Roddy,

I am not one to miss an opportunity to learn more or to obtain a higher level of pond keeping, thus what better source to receive this education from - than from a 'rocket scientist' as yourself.

Therefore, if you've seen a way to achieve a (better) method (on how to improve upon Mr. M's shower design) then please share these drawings with us all, so that we can all copy your suggested ideas.

Or please patent your ideas and allow me (and, any others equally willing) to be one of your many enthusiastic investors in the future sale and promotion of your updated shower design.

Rod, I am personally anxious and eager to follow the advice of Griff and yourself who have long professed the enormous value of trickle towers and become another of the growing list of trickle tower adherents...

No, I am not ready to give away any of my now conventional filtration systems, however, there is no doubt having an alternative trickle system (or wet/dry system) appears clearly upon my horizon.

Rod, your design as a rocket scientist may prove more difficult to fault ...than had been evidenced on this board (to fault) a koi breeder in Japan...

I sincerely appreciated all the many comments both pro and con on the Bakki system and now (along with many others) eagerly await any proven results from either the UK or yourself.

Lee
Grand Cayman

[Roddy Conrad]

Well, Lee, you are quite the humorist!

So you are on a tropical island with very few local ponding supplies, use Reverse Osmosis to prepare your water for ponding, and are interested in how to put up a trickle tower filter for your pond, right?

Construction details of a trickle tower filter, IMO, is a strong function of "local conditions". In your case, with reverse osmosis supply water which has no mineral content, I would "try" using all that free local coral for the trickle tower biofiltration media. It is loaded with the trace minerals your pond water needs, will provide the needed alkalinity, and "MAY NOT" put too much mineral content in the water to make it "too hard". If it does, then change the media choice.

How to construct the trickle tower depends on local materials, again, IMO. There are lots of choices, both Griff and I have used lots of different constructions, they all work reasonably well. I will work through Griff to make a private suggestion on appropriate tower construction to fit your special circumstances.

This is my HOBBY, and I have no interest in patents or merchandising of the technology involved.

Keep your normal occupation of providing those shopping centers for tourists going well, I don't think you will easily replace the existing commercial comedy acts with your humor! Too bad the cruise Griff and Merilyn chose to book us on next month does not drop by the Cayman Islands.....could have worked it out on the spot in that case.....

[Lee]

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:34 am

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Well, Lee, you are quite the humorist!

My dear friend,

I do, indeed, have a positive sense of humor, as well as, a positive look at life in general, however, I doubt anyone who knows me, would consider me a humorist.

I wonder if this is a postive sign of aging or whether it is simply one of the factors of growing old?

So you are on a tropical island with very few local ponding supplies, use Reverse Osmosis to prepare your water for ponding, and are interested in how to put up a trickle tower filter for your pond, right?

No, wrong.

It is true that I once had a useable reverse osmosis unit, however, it has long ago become non-working, instead, I now rely upon a combination of rain water or government supplied water.

Construction details of a trickle tower filter, IMO, is a strong function of "local conditions".

I don't know why local conditions would effect the basic issue?

However, assuming you are cognizant that my Caribbean environment is tropical in nature and that the demands of my koi are high as they never go into that 'wintery stage' as so many of our colleagues - can you provide me any specific advice?

I am not at all mechanical. However, my wife's cheque book can usually cover most any commerically made towers or filter system that may be on the market, as well as, that which can be custom made by someone who does know how to create that which is most wanted...and, needed.

In your case, with reverse osmosis supply water which has no mineral content, I would "try" using all that free local coral for the trickle tower biofiltration media. It is loaded with the trace minerals your pond water needs, will provide the needed alkalinity, and "MAY NOT" put too much mineral content in the water to make it "too hard". If it does, then change the media choice.

Roddy, I followed Griff's advice on this subject last season when I added a bag full of broken pieces of live coral into my final filter vat and some oyster shells, as well.

Additionally, once a month I add a significant quantity of Koi Tetra Vital to the pond water and every Sunday night I dose the pond with a couple cupful of 'clay' to maintain the proper mineralization of my otherwise 90% rain water filled pond.

However, would you recommend anything additional for my new pond, that I am not already doing?

How to construct the trickle tower depends on local materials, again, IMO. There are lots of choices, both Griff and I have used lots of different constructions, they all work reasonably well. I will work through Griff to make a private suggestion on appropriate tower construction to fit your special circumstances.

God Bless. Thank you! I would be honoured to have any advice...

There is significant diversity on this subject that I am fearful of doing any thing wrong.

As I believe no one is certain, any more, as to which is the right method. Or, which is the wrong one?

And, those that do know, the answers that I seek, like yourself, JR, or Griff and a handful of others, all live so very far distant from our little Caribbean home.

This is my HOBBY, and I have no interest in patents or merchandising of the technology involved.

Well, Roddy - if Bill Gates can turn his hobby into Microsoft, there is nothing wrong in my opinion, from your turning what gives you the most pleasure (your hobby) into a profit oriented venture.

...for certain, it is my hobby also.

However, it is also the source of the largest personal investment that I give the most time and attention to...don't you, also?

Keep your normal occupation of providing those shopping centers for tourists going well, I don't think you will easily replace the existing commercial comedy acts with your humor!

My involvement in operating these stores wherein we sell the worlds most famous brands of international known duty free goods to our visiting and local customers, indeed, gives me enormous pleasure, as well.

However, it is not as 'relaxing' nor as 'comforting' as my watching my favourite 'pond mutt' glide by late at night when this fat little girl appreciately looks up at me inviting me to take a swim with her...and, her Koi pals.

Too bad the cruise Griff and Merilyn chose to book us on next month does not drop by the Cayman Islands.....could have worked it out on the spot in that case.....

Hey, don't be so darn certain that our usually unpredictable Caribbean winter weather won't turn that huge luxury cruise ship liner around and head The Century towards our beautiful Cayman Islands - where Sheila and I will anxiously await those special guests from cabin #8073 and #8077 to our home...


Your pal,

Lee
Grand Cayman Island