bakki towers

[Mike Snaden]

Hi Lee,

The size you have quoted, and media quantity is quite correct. Four shelves are the 'norm', but Momotaro's new units are much cheaper, and hole a deeper amount of media, so hence, only need three shelves. These new systems are not really too good for hobbiests ponds, as the spill water all over the place.

One of Momotaro's systems is suited for in the region of 12,000 gallons per hour, and if you bear in mind that the minimum turnover for a Bakki Showered pond is 150% per hour, it is easy to figure out how many showers are needed for a pond. In this case, one 2 metre system for an 8000 gallon pond. (UK gallons, I'm affraid). Granted, it is an exceptionally expensive system, especially since both VAT and Duty are applied to imports on the stuff. Question is however, how much would you pay for the 'right' results? How much would you pay for 'maintenance free'? Cliff Neale (owner of BKKS Grand Champ) has 8 ponds now, and tests everything extensively, and keeps records of everything. He is convinced that the Showers make the Koi hungrier, physically fitter, and faster growing. Can you put a price on these things, if they are your ultimate goal?
On the bright side, such systems mean that a pond can be bigger within it's footprint, and have extremely simple plumbing.

Sludge drains... no. And the corner chamber on the Momotaro ponds is purely a pump chamber, and standpipe drain chamber. These chambers are aerated in order to make sure that no waste settles in them. As for sludge on the shelf... not an issue.

So, are we lemmings, or is it all worth it? Speak to those that have them!

Best regards,

Mike.

[James P]

Wow, wow mike, slow down on Lee. He is just asking a question! You are guilty of what you have gone after others for doing on other boards- namely, using bully tactics to stop the masses from asking questions about your product- not fair and you are better than that- I think?
Bakki showers will absolutely increase oxygen values so it is no wonder koi will have increased appetites. Oxygen is key to a high metabolism.
But you have not run them through winter outdoors yet. So I suggest you wait for a full outdoor four seasons before getting over confident about your products outcome. In the end, open air systems are excellent no matter what the brand. Claiming powers just short of curing cancer is not the way to go if you wish to retain a shred of credibility. Just some friendly advise. JR

[JasonS]

I believe Mike is simply reporting the same things that Maeda has said about the Bakki Shower and some of the things his customers, early adopters for sure, have told him.

Mike, thanks for relaying the info. I am suspicious about the lack of mechanical filtration on these Bakki Shower ponds but the results from the Momotaro fish certainly do speak well of the methods employed.

Large water volume per fish, simple filtration... sounds like a dream come true. I watch eagerly.

[Andrew]

Wow, wow JR, slow down on Mike, he is just answering a question!

Lee, regarding your question about amount of media, allow in your calcs. for the 'bulking' effect.
In a tower that I added, the calcs said the volume would accomodate 30kgs of BHM, in practice it didn't, it took 25kgs and try as I might I couldn't get any more in. So, I'd suggest that you allow something like 15 - 20% for voids between the media when working out how much you need.

(Do you actually live in Grand Cayman itself Lee?)

[Mike Snaden]

Hi JR,

I didn't think I was using Bully tactics, I just thought I was being enthusiastic, that's all.
What's the big deal about Winter? It is obvious that the systems can't be run outside on sub-zero temperatures (without protection), and I never said that they would. Thanks for thinking I was 'better then that' ;-)
These systems have been running over here since April this year. Granted, it's still early days, but those people that run them are people that have tried other systems, and been dissatisfied with various aspects of the results. I realise that you are trying to protect the masses from jumping straight in and making a mistake, and agree that it is best to sit back and watch others peoples results before taking the plunge. I realise that you had concerns about DOC and ORP levels with Bakki Showers, but DOC's haven't been an issue over here, and those that test ORP, have noticed an increase since using the showers.
Forgive me or this james, but you imply that it is the splashing water that does the trick, and not the media that's used, but this media has been very heavily researched in Japan, and tested against different forms of the same, and other medias. It's not just a ceramic waste product, but a purpose designed material, in a purpose designed shape.
Take a look at the attached pic. This pic is of three ponds at MTK brickworks. MTK is the company that makes the Bacteria House for Momotaro, and the owner Mr Mannami, is a keen Koi keeper. In this pic, there are three ponds, and hence, three sets of showers. Each tray of each set is divided into 5 sections, with each section containing a different media. So, that's 15 different medias on each pond, 45 in total. Many of these medias are variations of Bacteria House, but many others are also used. MTK mature these ponds and have the medias lab analysed periodically to check bacteria strains, counts, and other things. Momotaro have then carried out testing of Bacteria House in order to find out how the fish respond to it.
Have a happy New Year ;-)

Mike.

[Bern]

Hi Mike,

JR does bring up a valid point. This media and its housing has yet to be tested for four full seasons in our climate. Not that I expect anything drastic to occur when we have, but we might have to modity our expectations a bit. Time will tell and Cliff will have evidence to support it, of that I am sure.

Moving off target slightly. A guy in my koi club inspired by Marks talk a few months ago installed Bakki media in one of his filter bays (submerged). You supplied him, name of G.Richards. He noticed increased activity and appetite after a week or so. He is still saying this.

rgds BERN

[Maurice]

Here's a photo I promised Dick, Lee also may benefit as it shows there is no possible way anything could build up in the bottom of the trays.

Maurice.

[markgardner]

Mike

In light of Bern's comments i can't quite recall the details of our commission arrangement, perhaps you can remind me :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mark

[dick benbow]

Thanks Maurice for the picture. It helps as I'll probably start with the real BH media and improvise with a tray for now.
I want to say up front that I appreciate Jim and Lee for not being afraid to register thier concerns because it allows us to openly learn and discuss something in which all benefit.
I don't know how others feel but when bern quietly states something I've learned to listen.
this thread has truely been helpful and it is my intent to proceeed to learn for MYSELF, not what others say but what it does in my pond with my koi who I know very well! Since I already have an extremely ogygenated system, I'll learn if the media makes a difference in short order
keep up the back and forth everyone!

[James P]

Thank you Mike for a very prompt and courteous response to my objections. And I don’t want to be a spoiler here. As you said, I just want the masses to proceed slowly. You ,Brian and I have had many talks in the past about UK marketing interests not being entirely candid with the buying public. We have the same over here. Vets recommending systems that are fair to worthless. Popular and influential hobbyists that are unwittingly used by business interests to promote a breeder, a dealer or a product. Filters rated for systems that couldn’t possibly handle such water flows. It goes on and on.
I have many friends in the dealer community. Some try to do a good job and some are outright thieves. And my fellow hobbyists can be so naive about these things. I feel an obligation to say something. If I don’t, a few dozen more budding tategoi life time hobbyists will leave the hobby in disgust once they are several thousand dollars lighter and still struggling. No one likes to feel ripped off. And when they do realize they have been ripped off, or used, they fade away from the hobby. Unfortunately, I’ve seen it a hundred times.
A dealer once explained to me that impulse buying and ‘a short journey’ characterize the koi hobbyist experience. He said all hobbyists eventually leave the hobby or slow down their purchasing impulses with time. And from his point of view, his function was to get as much money out of them while the fever raged! I think I decided right there and then that I would be the antidote for that kinda guy! That was fifteen years ago. I have discussed and debated products ever since. Glass pitted media with powers to do denitrification AND nitrification, The unclog--ability of answer unit screens, fluidized bed filters in ponds, hang on UV lights over vortexes, magnets, PP treatments on Saturday mornings, undersized box filters, Ozone in a balanced pond. The list goes on. So it is very natural for me to react to special infrared radiating media that attracts and destroys DOCs and macro organic waste. Especially when NO science is offered to explain this revolutionary phenomenon. In effect ,you and the inventor are saying that you can run a wet/dry biofilter with inorganic and organic laden water in a closed system and never suffer any consequences. Not only no consequences, but the koi grow faster and act healthier. And when water temperatures cool to 50F , the organics don’t stop decaying and building and are not a problem in the spring. Further, aeromonas and pseudomonas are non-existent in this process. Mike, it’s a lot to swallow, as it turns all we know on its head?
Now I know the benefits of open air systems. I’ve owned them longer that Cliff, you or maybe even Maeda. I also taught more than a few about ORP in ponds. So that subject, I understand cold. Oxygen delivery will beat off nitrogen gas, ammonia and carbon dioxide. It will also raise OPR. No surprise there. But here is where I suspect problems will occur-

Maeda introduces freshwater as a dilution factor to a closed system. He in effect, runs open systems. Hobbyists have chloramines and chlorine to contend with. They run closed systems. Where will organics go?
The Maeda systems run indoors in a rather tight temperature range. This is not what hobbyists will do.
Unless hobbyists use bakki wet/dry showers with other existing submerged systems incorporating sumps and vortexes the waste will accumulate in the bacteria house media or the water column itself. It just doesn’t disappear. I believe you saw the DOC content on the new Maeda ponds with full stocking levels? I can post a picture if you like?
Water changes will become more important than ever in a stand along design. Some nitrate will be beaten off in the shower process but not all. Yet no caveat is given when the unit is recommended. Are water changes not necessary anymore either?


In the end, I’m sure most hobbyists will see improvement based on the benefits of trickle towers and wet/dry systems in general. I think it is a mistake to disconnect existing submerged designs however.
As for the powers of infrared ceramics? I await the science. JR