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Thread: Ion-exchange Softener for good skin?

  1. #11
    Nisai
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    even more confused, just been reading in koi doctor the japanese water is soft and you get better growth rates but not so good for the sumi. I will get more info on tuesday.

    rick

  2. #12
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    Just my two cents worth. IMO soft water is good for color (esp beni) but makes fish keeping an much more exact and less forgiving hobby. Hard water on the other hand is most likely better for a fishes all round health but will not benifit the color development of show fish and can in fact be detrimental to fish you wish to show.

    Any comment on this hypothosis?

    B.Scott

  3. #13
    Sansai Vogata's Avatar
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    Scott

    Well that wouldnít surprise us any; we donít have any real information one the subject and are as confused as the most replaying on this tread.

    All things been equal and Mother Nature one the team it looks like we in general is on really soft side (German HD vice). Have about on ton of data to scam through so the Norwegian description based one more then us is a bit delayed.

    Donít SMG have any interesting trail for us to follow on the subject?

  4. #14
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hmmm... I am 'snooping' about now!

    Anyway... I am not sure what Ann is talking about, as she keeps talking about hardness, and the amount of oyster shells breeders use? Shells don't buffer hardness, they simply dissolve on demand if water is producing large numbers of hydrogen ions (acid). Excessive use of shells will buffer KH to a degree, but a high KH doesn't mean that the water is 'hard'. Anyhow, all of the water that she tested was in breeders premises... places used only for 'holding' Koi, not growing them! The high stocking densities of holding ponds, means that many hydrogen ions are being produced, and hence, KH buffering is needed. But, mud ponds are a different matter entirely!

    Anyone remember this pic from Koichat last Summer? The meter is showing the TDS level of one of Momotaro's best performing mountain mud ponds. The TDS reading of 36ppm represents the combination of KH, GH, and organics in the pond, and yet the pond is brown! The brown colour is just stirred up mud, which isn't dissolved (but suspended), and hence, doesn't show up in the TDS reading.

    What I have been harping on about in all my articles, is making efforts to 'safely' try to emulate 'near' mud pond water, in an attempt to get mud pond results, NOT to emulate a breeders holding ponds!!!

    Another point, whilst on a roll... I think that RO plants can be very usefull for people in hard water areas, but I have NEVER EVER encouraged anyone to use only RO water. Untreated mains water MUST be mixed back in, to make a mix of water that is safe for keeping Koi.

    It is argued that soft water effects Sumi development. I feel that this is only partly true. I think that soft water will to a degree slow down Sumi development, but if hard water is necessary in order to make sumi show on a particular Koi, then the chances are that the sumi is very low quality anyway. Good Sumi will show regardless, in time. Temperature is a good tool for controlling Sumi development.

    A little bird told me a couple of weeks ago, that the aforementioned lady is claiming that I sell RO plants, and that is why I am promoting the use of them. As anyone who knows me will no, I have NEVER sold an RO plant, or taken any kind of 'kickback' from RO plant suppliers. In fact, one could argue that the use of an RO plant would negate the use of purifiers for metals removals, etc. So, could this be why I am so heavily frowned upon?

    BTW... I am in a good mood as I type this

    Mike.

    P.S... 'Craig A' uses RO water, and Bakki Showers (for those who asked)

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    B.Scott makes the important point, I think. Soft water is said to be preferable, keeps whites clean, intensifies reds, allows the koi's body to exude metabolic wastes more rapidly, etc., etc. But, soft water is much more difficult to manage without continual in-flow of fresh water or very low stocking. The nitrification processes in a typical hobbyist pond will lead to pH crashes etc much more rapidly in soft water. The koikeeper with soft water is more likely to become dependent on using baking soda, oyster shell, etc. Soft water "wants" to become acidic, while hard water "wants" to be basic.

    So, relatively soft water seems to be superior, but should be monitored more carefully.

    ...... DickB has convinced me that soft water is the key to Asagi success. I am sure he has good practical experience on maintaining soft water. ......Dick??

  6. #16
    Jumbo
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    I found the article I referred to earlier, in Nichirin August 2002 and penned by Ken Sasaki a prof from Hiroshima University.

    The data quoted shows an average hardness across mud ponds in Niigata, Hiroshima, Yamanashi and Kunamoto of 28.62mg/l. This is based on 10 different samples ranging from 4mg/l to 82.2mg/l.

    The data for indoor ponds shows a average hardness level of 99mg/l across 21 samples. However, there are 2 samples from Nara region which are way above others as 462 and 200mg/l.

    If we factor those out then we get an average of 73.72mg/l across the remaining 19 ponds.

    Mark
    Mark Gardner

  7. #17
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    Hi all just want to mention my experience here in Australia. There are still very few close to no one using softwater on their ponds in Australia except for me. Many of our kois from breeders are grown from dams but majority of these dams have hard water as they use a lot of underground water.

    I have personally seen a kohaku from a pond with around 900 ppm TDS reading go within 2 weaks from light yellowish skin to snow white skin within 2 weeks of being in the TEWA KOI pond (TDS of 50ppm) and also great improvement in Hi and Beni.


    TEWA

  8. #18
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The yellowishness you observed in high level hardness water is likely the metabolic wastes building in the skin & tissue. The high level of dissolved matter in the water prevents these wastes from leaving the body osmotically. In soft water, the wastes can be exuded through the skin as well as be filtered out by the kidneys etc. This leaves whites cleaner & reds brighter. ....I've read that there is a greater need for calcium in the diet in soft water, but not sure that standard quality pellets are not fully adequate in that regard.

  9. #19
    Sansai
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    Thank you all for the interesting and varied responses.

    Yes I have read both Mike Snaden's and Anne telford's articles, as appeared in Koi Carp Magazine (#101 and #112). I think these two articles represent the opposite view with regards to what kind of water is better for koi. So it seems that there are two kinds of water - one as dominant in Japan, and the other as in the rest of the world. But there are more converts now who consider that Japanese type of soft water is better.

    Personally, I tend to agree with Mike S. As the season for dealers to visit Japan is approaching, maybe we can request each of our dealers to ask directly to the Japanese breeder about their water condition.

  10. #20
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    hi Mike M

    yes its true, in soft water there is little room for GH (calcium and Magnesium) thus the diet is very important, feeding good food is very important, foods that have calcium phosphate added in will be fine to meet the kois requirements.

    best regards
    hong

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