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Thread: Ion-exchange Softener for good skin?

  1. #51
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    This doesn't quite add up.

    Scott, you say that the water has hardness of 8 to 10dh in the Netherlands. I am assuming that you mean a GH of 8 to 10dh?

    Anyhow, if the GH is as high as you say, then the KH wouldn't normally be vastly different, I think it is probably safe to say that the KH is 6dh or higher? (mains water)

    This being the case, then I would expect the TDS of the water to be perhaps 280 to 340 ish, which brings me to my next point...

    Ivar, your TDS level of 80ppm on the mains and pond, would indicate a very good maintenance regime, or a very lightly stocked pond. If this mains water had a KH of perhaps 2.5 to 3dh, and GH of much the same, then this would be the kind of water that I would consider pretty much perfect (for me). 80ppm is low enough to get great results, but high enough to keep the Koi looking attractive along the way. Raising the TDS to perhaps 100ppm would make the Koi look prettier, but suffer slightly in terms of growth. Run at perhaps 60ppm, and the growth would be very slightly better, but colours would not be any good for Koi shows, or at least, not until the Koi got big, and older.
    Given that you are in vaguely the same geological are as Scott, are you sure your TDS is that low??? Some of the TDS meters out there have a display that has to be multiplied by 10 to get the reading.

    Mike.

  2. #52
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    Mike,
    Naturally there is a a whole range of different water chemistries here but Like I said, 10dh is about average. Myself I have water of about 8dh and a Kh of between 4 and 5. Ivar's may indeed be softer. I would be very interested to know where he lives. Too bad he didn't complete his profile. I believe mains water here in the Hague is about 290 TDS.
    B.Scott

  3. #53
    Sansai
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    Hello Ivar,

    Welcome aboard. Your 'constant TDS ' of 80 ppm is already very good. I don't think you need an RO plant. I worry more about your 'water change of 1%', which to me is kind of very low - except if your stocking level is also very low!

    Anywhere, best regards from Indonesia.

  4. #54
    Nisai
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    hi mike I will have to get back to you with readings as I cant get hold of a gh test kit.

    rick

  5. #55
    Fry
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    Hi All,

    For me this is the first time on this forum. I'm a friend of Ivar and live in the Netherlands. I'm following this very interesting discussion. My aim is to get the best out of my koi. At this moment i'm busy to get me a sellection High Quality koi.
    Ivar has a TDS level of 80. The TDS level in my pond is over 200. Stocking rates are very low. The high TDS-level is something that bothers me. I want to lower the TDS level. I'm living in the same area as B. Scott does. So the tapwater is to hard to get low TDS. So i'm looking for a way to lower these levels.
    I understand using a RO unit can help me lowering TDS levels. Can somebody tell me the price of such a unit and what are the daily costs of such a unit?
    Another question i have is about the use of ozone. Can ozone reduce TDS-levels?

    Gr. John

  6. #56
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Welcome to the K-B board! It gives a unique window on koikeeping around the world.

    I'll defer to others regarding reverse osmosis units available in your area and cost of operation. The problem many encounter is storing until ready to use and disposal of the waste water, which contains the concentrated minerals which could not pass through the membrane. This is a small amont if your maintenance regime involves few water changes, but the more water you use as part of the maintenance routine, the more waste water you will need to dispose. For example, if you use 50% RO water to get the water where you want it, and do 35% water changes during the week, you will be replacing about 10 tons per week, using 5 tons of RO water. To avoid fluctuating water conditions, you will need to have storage for that 5 tons of RO water so it is available when you need it. RO units vary in their efficiency. Some produce almost as much waste as they do pure RO water and it will vary depending on usage between replacement of membranes etc. If you will be disposing of, say, 2.5 tons of water for each 5 tons of RO water produced, you may be able to use it in the garden without inconvenience, if your unit is located where disposal lines can be conveniently run. Using RO becomes the critical factor in maintenance and operation. All of your routines will be re-adjusted around availability of the RO water. So, be sure you understand how it impacts you before you jump in. If the change in you routines is workable, then go for it.

    As to using ozone, I have seen terrible damage done by it. It is a very dangerous gas. Before you go that route be sure you fully appreciate how destructive ozone is. If not removed from the filtered water before being returned to the pond, your fish will be at risk. All plastics, rubber etc. degrade rapidly in the presence of ozone and begin to crumble. So it must be removed before it enters pvc piping etc. Ozone can reduce TDS to the extent the TDS is organic. While some non-organic dissolved solids may be oxidized to a non-dissolvable form, ozone is best limited to oxidizing organics. I would never recommend ozone to anyone simply because I've seen the damage it can do.

  7. #57
    Fry
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    Hi Mike,

    Thank you for the warm welcome and explanation. Maybe i'm a newcomer on this forum but certainly no newcomer in the hobby. I'm keeping koi for over twelve years by now. One of the pioneers in the Netherlands.
    Due to a lack of space it will be inpossilble for me to use a RO-unit. The gardens in the Netherlands are simply to small. I can't storrage large amounts of water waiting for being used. I do a lott of waterchanges. I follow the scedule that JR once gave me. Together with a good and large filtersytems i thought it was enough to reduce TDS to acceptable levels. I was wrong. The tapwater is just to hard. So i'm looking for a way to make this tapwater a lott softer.

    I agree about your concerns when using ozone. But i know what it takes to use ozone in a safe way. Never had any problems. So ozone to me is a wonderfull addition to my main filtersystems.

    John

  8. #58
    Fry
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    Thanks to all for the nice welcome here at the forum.

    B.Scott

    I'm living in Almere, for the people who don't now Almere It is next to Amsterdamand only exist for 25 years and got 180.000 inhabitants.

    The thought behind the RO is because I wan't a perfect pondwith perfect conditions fot the fish to grow and live in.
    My other thought is that I wan't to buy only good tosai and let them grow up to sansai and than look if I wan't to keep them or sell them for a small amount to someone with also a good pond and who is a good pondowner.

    As for my filtration i'm busy whit a little rebuilt off my pond so I cann fit a other filtersystem to get a higher filteration flow off my pondwater.
    I'll hope to get a flow off the pondwater thru the filtartion between every 45 ore 60 minutes.

    Dick Benbow,

    I'm backwashing my bbf every day. But i'm thinking to take a smaller one so I can backwash every 12 hours. This is fully automatic.

    One thing is for sure my koi are doing well and my pond also.

    If it isn't broke you won't have to fix it!

    This is a good statement but I always want to try new ways off filtration and them i'm selling the "old" stuff.

    I think the way off filtration 80% off the hobbyist do is not efficient enough. The filtration cann be a lott smaller and more efficient.

    Take a look at the bakki shower, small and efficient. Only not for my climate here in the netherlands.

    Iff I had the money I would buy a rotating drum filter whit a screensize off 40 micron. But there is the issu money.

    Ass B.Scott is telling the water in the Netherlands is almost perfect. teh only thing isn't perfect is the price. I pay 1,80 euro for 1 ton. That's about 1,50 us dollar.

    Mike Snaden,

    thanks for responding.

    I'm in a other geological area than Scott. His area is next to the sea what maybe can effect his and John's high TDS.
    I'm living in the middle off the Netherlands and or water is coming from a national park whre the got a waterflow off ages old.
    It's got a little hardness because off that.

    Follow the link for all the waterparameters.

    My water is coming from fledite.

    http://www.hydron.nl/pls/portal/docs/1/6528.PDF

    For measering the TDS I use a Hanna HI 98130.

    Than I have to calculate the tds from ppt towards ppm.
    The told my that ppt is not Parts per triljoen bus part per thousend.

    Then the reading is 0,80 I multiply It by 10 and come to 80 ppm.


    B.scott I'll complete my profile for all the people who are intrested in me.

    Kiky

    The maximum off fish I would have in this pond whit 30 tons is 15 fish. This is already 50 % higher than I stated before.

    John,

    Moving to Almere is a option???????????????
    Ore buy a big truck and buy some water from me.

    Mike M

    Ozone I have seen some total damage things done buy ozone but this was all related to a to big ozone supply and a to small reactor.
    At the moment I'n the Netherlands and Germany there are o3 machine's off 2 grams for 50 tons. this is also depending on filtrationcapacity.

    Ozone is very powerfull and when you would like to go that way first now the ins and outs off it.

    it is the same as a RO to low tds isn't good for your fish also.
    But that is a other subject , maybe for a discussion later on.
    Off every discussion whe all get better is my thought.

    Thanks to all for responding.

    Ivar

  9. #59
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    If TDS is 0,80 ppt (0.80 ppt) then you have 800 ppm.

  10. #60
    Tategoi Maurice's Avatar
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    Mike, there are many of us in the UK, using RO water.
    As far as I am aware, NONE of us store any water what so ever. It just flows.
    I do my daily maintenance and this drops the pond levels, the mix of RO and tap water then tops the ponds back up. Any excess before my next maintenance allows the pond to over flow till the level is dropped again.
    It flows in at such a slow rate, there is no need to worry about temperatures. If you were to store the water and then do a big water change, you would have to supply heating to your storage tank as well as pond.

    Iím not a once a week water change man, itís every day, all day.

    Maurice.

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