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Thread: Koi That Fail

  1. #41
    Tategoi Maurice's Avatar
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    Diego,

    You are correct in thinking maruzome kiwa is the rear end of a hi plate which follows the edge of the scales in a scalloped fashion. Toshio Sakai is also working with maruzome sumi, where the trailing edge of a block of sumi also shows this scalloped edge in his sanke.


    ---------------------
    ------------Maruzome kiwa--------------------------------Kamisori kiwa
    Sorry these photos are a little poor and different sizes, but they are snippets taken from photos of my own koi and not just shot to show the kiwa types.


    Stability of beni is a difficult thing to predict, it has been said above that perhaps the breeders may know in advance of us, when a koi has reached the point where the beni is about to break up, spoil the koi and they sell it off quick. I canít see this as true, if that were the case, these breeders would get a one time sale and no more, who would be going back to these breeders if every koi you brought from them failed? To me the breeders are very honourable people and would rather take the loses themselves than pass them onto the customer.



    Early signs of beni breaking up can show in one of 3 ways, from the head, from the kiwa, or as a total weakening of the beni.



    The most common I have seen shows towards the back end of a hiban, at or around the kiwa edge, the beni starts to weaken around the last scale, showing a little white or just lightening of the colour, this happens on koi with maruzome and kamisori kiwa, kamisori kiwa, is the type of kiwa in which the hiban edge cuts through the scale and not following the scale edge. A koi with kamisori kiwa which starts to fail can start to change into a maruzome style kiwa as the hi tends to receded.

    With this type of recession look low down on the beni pattern, when a koi finishes the pattern finishes from the bottom upwards, this is often also where the pattern starts to break up from.



    The next is beni breaking up from the head. The red pattern on the head should not change but sometimes it does, this is the time to be concerned. If it is a koi in your collection you can see this happening, but if it is a koi you are thinking of buying you have no idea. But if the pattern on the head has receded you can often see a pink Ďhueí where the beni use to be, also pink/red spots where the pigment is still a little stronger. (these pink/red spots and a general pink hue can often be seen in time on a koi which has had itís head pattern Ďsurgically enhanced)



    I have another photo showing the pink staining and spots on a koi I have which I feel has had it's head pattern altered. I'm not commenting on the one above! I own both these koi, I other photo I shall have to dig out or retake.

    Then there is the general failing of the beni in totality, this in my experience is less common. Although most beni loss is due to a trigger (poor conditions etc), I believe this happens more often when there is a hiccup in the system. This type of beni loss can happen very quickly and within week or two you can have a white koi, whereas with the others mentioned it can take much longer, some times years for the koi to lose all of itís colour.



    On the whole the purple type beni is the least stable, with the more orange types being better at holding their colour, but all types and shades can break up. Some koi which are vulnerable to loosing their beni can have a trigger to start the failing, then conditions return to normal halting the recession, only for it to start up again with the first hiccup.



    All these points I raise should be remembered when buying a new koi, look closely at the edges of the patterns and pick a koi with an even shade from head to tail and keep your fingers crossed. Cheap koi and expensive koi can fail. Thickness of the beni is an important point, some koi have the colour which is just like it were painted on the surface, when this type of koi moves white can often be seen at the scale edges. If you pick up a koi like this and bend itís body, white can clearly be seen under the scales, leave that one behind. A good quality koi will have many layers of colour deep down into the skin.

    Maurice.

  2. #42
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    good post maurice. lots of helpful information. I think as a breeder in Europe you should consider putting this kind of knowledge into them olde blue fish!

  3. #43
    Nisai estanque_koi's Avatar
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    Hi Maurice,
    thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and explaining so clearly all these key concepts. Your post is really superb, good and useful information. Better than many articles in Koi magazines!
    I think it is a pity that this post will be probably difficult to find in some few months by new people joining the forum, and is so informative that you should cosinder to either try to get it published in a magazine or in your web page.

    This piece of information might also be very useful to friends and members of the Spanish Koi Keeper's Society (A.E.K.) that are starting to import rather expensive Koi.
    Would it be allright if I translate it to spanish and publish the translation in the A.E.K. web page (www.elkoi.com)? You might suggest a title and of course you will be credited as the author, besides a link to your web site. What do you think? Please, let me know your thoughts.
    All the best,
    Diego
    Diego Jordano
    Cordoba, Spain
    A.E.K. web site http://www.elkoi.com
    pers. web site http://es.geocities.com/estanqueskois/

  4. #44
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Mo, great post!!!! Very informative!!!

  5. #45
    Tategoi Maurice's Avatar
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    Diego, Iím more than happy for you to translate this to your Spanish web site with an acknowledgement. I can supply photos to illustrate each of the types of beni loss types I talk about, I was going to try and post them but Brian seems to have a block on the number of photos which can be posted with each entry, so I left them out. Iíll try editing the post and put them in.
    Often, if I put a lot of effort into a post, I do a bit of extra and the add it to my web site. I may do the samme with this.
    Best wishes and good luck this coming breeding season,

    Maurice.

  6. #46
    Tategoi jacovors's Avatar
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    I find this post very informative and to a amateur breeder this is priceless.
    What to look for in Tosai and fry for that matter is not very widly discussed.
    I think this board and Brian's mag is where you will find information that you can really use.
    Thanks guys.
    Jaco

  7. #47
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    Kudos Maurice!

  8. #48
    Tategoi Maurice's Avatar
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    I've added some photos to the post, I wanted to use two more but Brians board will not allow any more than I have posted.

  9. #49
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Maurice,

    Send me the message you get when posting pics, and I'll see if I can't fix it.

    rgds,
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  10. #50
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Excellent photos! The koi with the Hi fading on the face, did it also fade on the shoulder?

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