Koi That Fail

[Maurice]

Thanks brian, thanks done the trick.

Mike, the beni also finally started breaking up on the body of the Bandit, from the kiwa end. I have owned this koi since summer 2000, the beni had already started breaking on the head when she came to me in a poor state. It was 2003 before the face pattern had gone completly. She still has all her body pattern but you can see it's going.
She's special and will live with us till she dies.
Maurice.

[estanque_koi]

Excellent, Maurice! I will start translating your post tonight. The pictures are an excellent additon to the text.
Diego

[gregbickal]

Heres one I thought would turn out to be a nice Shrio Bekko. First picture is 2003 as a 12" Nisai. Second picture is 2004 as a 16" Sansai. I started feeding a new food in 2004 that I got from Kloubecs. It was 44% protien with color enhansors. Yep, it enhanced the colors all right.... And they say that Hi doesnt come up... HA.

[gregbickal]

Sorry for the poor quality small picture. On the left we have a 8" Tosai (2002), on the right we have a 17" Sansai (2004). I am the breeder.

[gregbickal]

This koi use to be a kohaku (i'm the breeder). Classic went white in about a week. Now its scales are a little gin rin looking. Sorry I dont have a before picture on this one. Its a 4 year old 20"

[gregbickal]

I was very dissapointed in this one also. However, breeding and watching koi grow and change is my favorite part of the hobby. I just wish the changes were for the good, not the worse. Well, now that I have some Japanese stock, mabye it will

[bekko]

Dick, thanks for the response to the question about sanke breeders in the Favorite Gosanke Breeder thread. Unfortunately, its not the answer I was hoping for. It's disappointing that all the best sanke breeders have the same hi from a genetics standpoint. I am following-up here in the Koi That Fail thread because I can relate to koi that fail better than I can relate to gosanke breeders.

Basically, every fish I have is a koi that failed. Not to the extent of the disappearing hi cases discussed above, but just weak and washed out hi in general. I can make great sumi, but the beni is always poor.

I will continue fussing with my water, but the bottom line is that the alkalinity will always be higher than desired. The operating cost of RO and resins is unacceptable. I thought about switching from gosanke to shiro utsuri and bekko, but just can't get excited about that approach.

I happened to take in an orphan koi which has the purple-type beni. A horrid pattern, but it is interesting that the color has held up so well. Its the only fish in the lot with hi that does not looked washed out. So, I'm now wondering if I can use genetics to overcome a shortcoming in my water. Has anyone else with hard water experienced this?

Way back when, Manzo red was the fad. I recall someone calling it "lipstick red" but haven't heard that term applied in a while. But, isn't this the same as what we call "purple" type red today? I think Hazegawa kohaku is noted for having Manzo founding stock. Which sanke breeders have the Manzo red?

Below, Maurice says that the disappearing hi phenomena is more common with purple-type hi. That's a real kick-in-the-gut for this idea. If I finally broke down and purchased some Japanese fish, only to have them do the disappearing hi trick, I would go ballistic.

Is this just another crazy idea without merit, or should it be pursued for a while longer?

-steve hopkins

[ranskye]

ive had young white goldfish go to a silver overnight in a blue bucket.
seems a red bucket keeps the colour up.
dont know if this is totally the reason really, may be just stress, i cant remember if i had too many fish in the blue and not many in the red.
naturally many fish change their colour seemingly on purpose to blend or show.
banded marks, colour up..when mating, when in top nutritional and water condition.

what if the fish lose its colour a bit when it feels threatened so no one (predator) sees it so much. those are big changes..it may just take a big sickness or stressor, sometimes we dont know the fish is sick, certainly if the colour stays gone maybe its not real happy still.

i would wonder if those fish that went wrong would ever come back.
anyway i guess its all part of their makeup toward survival.
keep up the before and afters we are learning something.

[Brian]

Quote: Originally Posted by ranskye ive had young white goldfish go to a silver overnight in a blue bucket. seems a red bucket keeps the colour up. dont know if this is totally the reason really, may be just stress, i cant remember if i had too many fish in the blue and not many in the red. naturally many fish change their colour seemingly on purpose to blend or show. banded marks, colour up..when mating, when in top nutritional and water condition. what if the fish lose its colour a bit when it feels threatened so no one (predator) sees it so much. those are big changes..it may just take a big sickness or stressor, sometimes we dont know the fish is sick, certainly if the colour stays gone maybe its not real happy still. i would wonder if those fish that went wrong would ever come back. anyway i guess its all part of their makeup toward survival. keep up the before and afters we are learning something.

Interesting...have you read the Asagi special issue yet?

[ranskye]

nope brian i havent yet, im still getting there.

seems to me that the reds hold overnight in a red bucket very very well.
the white fish goes silver in trying to look blue and the fish with the white background with even dark patches of black can fade in their black quite a lot real fast too.
i had these black and white goldies that id never seen before anywhere and black and red also and id really notice the offspring as they were unique individuals to the farm.
when i went to sell them they lost their magic real quick. its my thinking that they come back good in the shop tanks though,.
just goldfish.. but its all colour pigments and reactions to environment, stressors or some stimuli..