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Thread: Bead Filters, an American curse?

  1. #11
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    most of the meandering streams with rock in them are trash collectors and eventually become sludgy and work against you unless you clean them. Trust me on that.

    cleanliness is next to godliness with koi ponds. ponds that are designed to catch waste and unload them daily work best. It's obvious that Mike in Hawaii is way over filtered but you can tell by his water quality and growing koi, he's doing it right.
    I think good koi keepers are devoted, like good bonsai keepers. It's being there daily and enjoying the "work" of keeping with a passion.

    This summer in my outside pond i will run a BB then thru my filter system and will backwash every 3 days. because of the giant filter system as back up to the BB
    there is no fluctuation in water quality.the BB acts only as mechanical in my mind.

  2. #12
    Tategoi
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    Stan: Am 100% with MR. Benbow

    Stan:

    Once again all I can say is "Ditto" to Dicks post....Having said that, I'm like you, I like the "au natural" look of a waterfall and streams, have um on our Japanese Garden pond...

    When I first installed it, I lined the stream beds with 2" flat river rocks, looked great, but after only a week they collected too much fine crud...took um out and went with just the concrete beds, now clean as a whistle, no creepy crawlies...algae makes them look natural...

    A seasoned hobbyst posted a thread on the NI board awhile back explaining that his water quality looked great, but then the koi started doing the back stroke...problem, debris on the bottom of his catchment basins which hadn't been cleaned in some time started to ferment adding unseen toxins to water...

    Aloha! Mike

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Saratogatan: All things are possible if one is willing to work at it. As DickB points out, a stream is no problem .... if you clean it. Problem is most folks eventually get lazy. In theory, a stream babbling over rocks would add oxygen, nitrification surfaces, de-gassing, etc. ... all the benefits of a Bakki Shower. In practice, every leaf that falls is trapped in the water and rocks, the glarf builds and continuous decomposition sets in. The faster the stream flows, the better. A real torrent will be best .... all the bad stuff gets washed into the pond where the real filters will eventually get it. BUT, if a person takes care to regularly clean it, minimize places where debris will be trapped to rot, etc., then there should be benefits, if they work at it every week. It is all a question of how hard you are willing to work.

  4. #14
    Jumbo
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    Yes, stream is good for collecting debris, and need cleaning. I clean mine 4 times a year, but I only average 4oz of feeding daily. I routinely pickup leaves and other junks from the stream everytime I walk around it. I may add a BB to the waterfall, and see if i can readuce the cleaning to once a year. (see, I am way lazy). In the summer, I had to clean my filter, I mean deep cleaning, every 3 days due to koi pooh piling up. Thing did not change much after I shut it off, when I shut off my waterfall, water turned green in 2 days, so my main filter is pretty much a non-filter, and my waterfall has been my main filter.

    My pond is netted, no leaf in the pond.

    My water quality is so-so, kois have been growing like weeds. except for a couple of kois who refuse or too old to grow, most of my kois grew 14" or more a year in this pond.

  5. #15
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donald
    Last weekend it was wonderful day for me to visit a koi dealer near by. There were a bunch of new arrival nisai to view and critic, a chance of tete-a-tete conversation with an seasoned judge/hobbyist and meeting a bunch of koi friends.

    After all those years of debating, one of my koi friend still insisted that using bead filter filtration as the main bio source is an acceptable option! an philosophy of (bio) selection! Talking about the pursuit of wisdom!! Here is his filtration setup:

    B. drain > shalow settling tank with Matala.
    Then to pump > bead filter > to pond.

    This design was the brainchild of 3 local koi dealers that I am aware of. The principle of this warp setup was to catch most of the waste at the settling tank with help from Jmats, Matala or PCV shaves .... then the beadfilter has an easy time in processing the ammonia/nitrite! Instead of daily summer backwashing, the routine is reduce to a weekly/monthly chores!! Settling tank is then isolated and clean weekly!! My good Lord! there are more: the dealers claimed fish is healthy and growing like weed!! And, I almost forget, the water is GIN clear! Meanwhile the dummy guy, like JR, was talking about 2-hour interval settling tank summer flushing if he has his way!!!

    My friend, I would like to debate with you on this cyber once for all. You know who I am and I know you cruise this cyber .... let's debate this week as my current work load would allow me to sit and cruise with you all day! Looser pay for all SoCal ZNA trip? Donald

    ps. in the future meetings between us, we only talk about how to collect real high class Nishikigoi at an affordable cost. OK my friend?
    Hey Donald, you have described another persons pond without telling us about your pond...Well anyways, I pretty much know all the people you have mentioned and it doesn't bother me one-bit, but the use of "Dummy Guy" is a low blow in this hobby...Don, there are a lot of local people in your area that read this board and trust me in this hobby you can get "Black listed" very fast!!!! Well anyways, I am not saying I am an expert on filteration, so I am in no means goin to dive into this thread.

  6. #16
    Tategoi erwinsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow
    there are many roads that get to rome.
    To me BB's are like fire. To know how to properly use one is to be kept warm, to expect them to be the end all be all is to get burned. As always knowledge makes the difference.....
    I with you Dick, there is more that one way to filter a koi pond and everyone has their own opionion on which one works best. In my opionion, they all work it's the maintenance that promotes their efficiency. With the right up keep they all work, and without it they all crash.

    If there is truly one "PERFECT" system, I myself and the rest of the koi community would be interested.

    Low Blow's are unappreciated on this board.

  7. #17
    Tategoi
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    Thumbs up erwinsan and others ~ There is a perfect System

    It's natures, but it ain't cheap...

    There are a number of watercress farms on the shores of Pearl Harbor fed by artesian wells. In the 60’s, when I started this hobby, I visited one of the farms where the owner built his house so that a deck was over his well…

    The first paddock next to his house was dedicated to koi…it was only 18"-2’ deep but contained the biggest, most beautiful koi I had ever seen…. Best part was the water was crystal clear and the maintenance was Zero, because this was a flow through system…I live in the area and our water, the same that feeds the wells is: 7.5 pH, with a hardness of 3 dH and zero contaminants… Sing along with me, Heaven, I'm in Heaven...

    The farmer fed his koi, dog food, because it made um grow big fast (remember this was the ‘60s)… Each morning and evening, he’d throw handfuls of the doggie chow into the pond, the koi would eat their fill and the left overs would flow into the adjacent paddies along with all the koi waste as free fertilizer for the cress…

    I’ve always dreamt of buying property in the area, but never followed through, stupid me!…

    To make matters worse, the @#$*%^ power company condemned his land using a crazy law of eminent domain (they needed the land for the good of the people) forced him to sell, capped the well, filled in the ponds and built a storage yard and parking lot…. As the song says "they sold paradise and put up a parking lot" Grrrrrrrr!

    Aloha! PO’d

  8. #18
    Tategoi erwinsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T
    It's natures, but it ain't cheap...

    There are a number of watercress farms on the shores of Pearl Harbor fed by artesian wells. In the 60’s, when I started this hobby, I visited one of the farms where the owner built his house so that a deck was over his well…

    The first paddock next to his house was dedicated to koi…it was only 18"-2’ deep but contained the biggest, most beautiful koi I had ever seen…. Best part was the water was crystal clear and the maintenance was Zero, because this was a flow through system…I live in the area and our water, the same that feeds the wells is: 7.5 pH, with a hardness of 3 dH and zero contaminants… Sing along with me, Heaven, I'm in Heaven...

    The farmer fed his koi, dog food, because it made um grow big fast (remember this was the ‘60s)… Each morning and evening, he’d throw handfuls of the doggie chow into the pond, the koi would eat their fill and the left overs would flow into the adjacent paddies along with all the koi waste as free fertilizer for the cress…

    I’ve always dreamt of buying property in the area, but never followed through, stupid me!…

    To make matters worse, the @#$*%^ power company condemned his land using a crazy law of eminent domain (they needed the land for the good of the people) forced him to sell, capped the well, filled in the ponds and built a storage yard and parking lot…. As the song says "they sold paradise and put up a parking lot" Grrrrrrrr!

    Aloha! PO’d
    What a shame. Your right... but again how many of us can find this opportunity. To have a natural water source good for koi with zero maintenance and enviromentally friendly. Even in Japan with their mud ponds, they still have to do annual maintenance and pull the koi out to winter them in doors. Hey, it's all part of the fun.

    Regards

  9. #19
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Yup no perfect system yet, haven't seen it....If anyone's seen it let us all know, cause sure as hell I have been using the same system for the last 4 years....Anyways, all I know is that you can have the cleanest water and if your fish dont look good you still have a problem....People can go on and on about systems and what works best from them, to he suggest this and she suggested that....Whatever works best for the hobbyist and their budget I guess.
    Also tategoi was brought up in this thread...What the hell is a "Real tategoi", Those of us who have been to Japan and had a chance to see such a creature knows it's just tategoi. Is there a fake tategoi out there? Everything is tategoi to some point at what point no one knows. So is it cool to say a nice aged Merlot is tategoi? or real tategoi? Whatever real tategoi means it must be at a level even higher than that of breeders standards and anyways you have to have some serious cash to buy a "Real Tategoi". Sounds like something a dealer would tell a hobbyist who didnt know jack about Nishikigoi just to buy it on a good sales pitch.
    Back to filteration, unless you have the budget to build a small city sewage threatment plant for your pond by all means do it, it's your money!! But to me if your fish look like garbage I will let you know. It's all about the fish period!!!
    DRnNY likes this.
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  10. #20
    Nisai
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    aquitori, there is a perfect system. Its the koi keeper himself.

    SF

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