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Thread: Bakki shower thread continuation

  1. #101
    Oyagoi
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    Wow, that is a high tds. Was this pond running on another filter for a while or is it a totally new pond?

    The one you are tesing it against, is it new or old and how long has it been running, and are they in similar light?

    Keep us informed!

  2. #102
    Sansai shiromujigirl's Avatar
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    Alright Jim! Another real world test!

  3. #103
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junglegeorge12
    Wow, that is a high tds. Was this pond running on another filter for a while or is it a totally new pond?

    The one you are tesing it against, is it new or old and how long has it been running, and are they in similar light?

    Keep us informed!
    Built the bakki pond in march. I suspect the high tds is my fault as I must not have cleaned the the lava very well so both ponds will get water changes tomorrow.

    The one I'm testing it against is 2 1/2 years old. It is smaller by half. It also gets less light. However what I am really trying to test is if the non bakki pond stays the same generally while the bakki pond number increase or decrease depending on test. Basically this would prove its working without having to take things like weather or temperature into account. My theory is that any changes due to weather or temperature will be noticable in both ponds. For instance: it rains and the ph drops in pond A. It will also drop in pond B. This would be a case of the rain effecting the water quality and not an indicator of the bakkis performance or lack of. So I guess after a month of testing the curve should be relatively flat for the non bakki pond while the testing curve for the bakki pond should get better and better to a point. Once it tops out then it is time to test with a different media and compare the results again.
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  4. #104
    Oyagoi
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    Where did you go to tewa?

    I thought you might like this.

    Here is a link to a pdf about research done at Amsterdam University, it goes into detail about how FIR vibrations at low levels (2-10uM) can affect hydrogen bonds, and more importantly, how the overall water structure is affected and what it is able to reform into in the presence of FIR. It also goes into detail about how FIR affects protien structures and biomolecular structure. Contrary to pseudo science thinking, it is not the pore size making all the difference.

    http://www.amolf.nl/publications/annual_reports/2003/femtophysics.pdf#search='FAR%20infrared%20water%20 molecule%20research

    I believe that is the real difference between BH and other medias. Pore size is important, but there is much more to it than that.

  5. #105
    Sansai
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    no mention of the words hydrogen, water, infrared, bond, or even far anywhere in that paper

    edit: link got mungled by my browser and brought up the wrong paper. unlike some, i can admit when i've made a mistake.

    that paper still doesn't claim fir breaks up hydrogen bonds though.

  6. #106
    Oyagoi
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    really? thought you were asked not to post here but anyway, the first sentence says

    'Hydrogen bonding plays an essential role in the dynamical and structural properties of condensed-phase systems like liquid water.' end quote

    read the link folks, iggy the ugly commentary

  7. #107
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    hey junglegeorge

    been a bit absent lately, primary job as a chaeuffer for my mother the last couple of days as she has just flown in from malaysia. Also very busy organising the move to sydney.

    Thanks for the link mate great reading. First page says it all. The use of Fir Rays to stretch and excite the H bond. Great stuff

    Need to read the other pages a fewmore times to try and understand some of it (sorry feel so dumb). But great reading mate.

    Oh btw did you get ban totally from koiphen. I just did (for doing nothing yet).

    tewa
    There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
    http://www.tewakoi.com

  8. #108
    Oyagoi
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    Yes tewa, I was banned from koiphen completely for suggesting to them that their behaviour of not banning val for his continuous barrage of insults yet banning you and me from posting was less than fair. I also confronted him for the mocking link he set up to ridicule a known and trusted breeder as going against his own clearly stated rules. Talk about double standards based on the owners childish emotions......he then complained that I had offended him.....boohooo

    Anyway, the first page of that link is all you need to understand, the majority of the rest of it just goes into exactly how protien and biomolecular structures are affected. The important part is it is frequency that causes vibration and excitation, it affects hydrogen bonds and more importantly what they can and cannot reform into every so many picoseconds, and also affects protein and biomolecular structures.

    Do you remember the 'joke' I made about filters one day being one big vibrational device?

    To be honest tewa, I do not like to hand out exactly how things like that work to people for free. It is like handing them the formula to make the best media in the world for nothing, which is what some of them probably want.

    For that reason tewa, I am not going to post in pubic the complete results of my friend's investigation, but I will pm them to you. I will also post his end assessment of the validity of the medias claims and it's benefits as a filter media.

  9. #109
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerMoo
    dtbh, spell out what are you going to do in your test.

    1) will you be just using the BH/BS for your pond or are you doing a combination with your sub-chambered filtration system?

    2) are you going to do a long-term or short-term test?

    3) what / do you intend to 'record' / observe / are your intended findings?
    Will start a new thread when the time is appropriate to share the results. Did the flow tests last weekend and it worked wonderfully. Have confirmed the Bakki Shower and the 250kg of Bacteria House.

    For a start here are the answers to your questions:

    1. Will slowly by-pass my conventional system to see the effect(s) WHEN the BS/BH has seeded.

    2. You don't do short term test on 250kg worth of BH

    3. Will monitor objective parameters (DO,ORP,TDS,pH,nitrates) as well as subjective observations (appetite, growth rate, sedimentation). I will know if there are any extraordinary subjective changes in my system since I have been with this system for about 5 yrs now.

    Will probably start early next month.

  10. #110
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    Have just been reading this thread, having spoken to Tewa a few days ago.

    I can't really understand why people here are getting so hung up over the FIR aspect, as though it is all that matters?

    To my mind, the only point of any importance, is the 'real world' results. Theory, and science are nowhere as important as the the 'actual' results of running Showers. We have had Showered ponds running for long enough now, to know that there are no long-term problems or disadvantages.

    The people that buy Showers are most influenced by the 'maintenance-free' aspect. But, to my mind, the single most important factor of the Showers, is the condition of the Beni in Showered ponds. Why?... think about what generally happens to Koi in the hands of a breeder...
    Generally, a Koi will always have it's best Beni condition when harvested from the mud pond. It may appear a little pale, but this is because of the nature of the waters effect on the pigment cells. What I am saying, is that to some extent you should imagine the pigment cells as being like coral, in that they stand up in good water, and populate strongly. Put them into lesser water, and the will then tend to lie down, perhaps to try to protect the Koi? This makes the colour much redder, but also damages the Teri (lustre) of the colour. But, when they are in this state, some of the cells then don't fourish as well, and hence die off, making the colour look redder, but thinner. A Koi kept in a breeders pond will slowly deteriorate in this way, and can quite often do this to the point where some of the scales will have no colour pigment at the tip of the scales, making the scale tip appear transparent. This won't generally bother a breeder too much, as he will be safe in the knowledge of knowing that this kind of deterioration will be easily fixed up again when the Koi is put back in the mud pond for the next season.
    Now, consider what happens to most Koi that are kept in hobbiests ponds... can you see any similarities in your Koi? I think that most people would say yes, if they were to pull up every Koi and inspect them closely? But, if I compare my 8000 gallon pond, to my Showered ponds, it is clearly evident that the Beni of the KOi is in the absolute best condition possible, and maintain this look despite extremely fast growth. I feel that this is the Bakki Showers absolute best benefit, particularly when you see the same thing with other peoples Baki Showered ponds. I feel that the increase in appetite, and hence growth, is the second best benefit.
    To further this... take a look at Cliff Neale's twice GC Sanke, measuring 85cm as six years old in 2003, and now 93cm as eight years old. But, despite the ageing, and growth, the Beni of this Sanke is at it's best ever, and will probably improve further, whereas most previous Show winners usually re-appear at the Koi show the following year in a far worse condition. Bearing this in mind, what do you think will happen when you try and raise a Koi from Tosai, to become a potential Gand Champ? In most cases, this would be so challenging, that it wouldn't be worthwhile trying. But, people like Cliff Neale, and perhaps a dozen or so others in the UK, are now capable of raising small Tosai (24cm ish), to become Nisai of extremely high quality, and 68 ~ 71cm.
    So, the bottom line with this is that yes, Bakki Showers and their running costs, are expensive. But, if you on the other hand put in moderately priced Koi (perhaps average 500 each) into the pond, and then achieved wonderful results, then the costs of a Showered pond become pretty insignificant.

    I can't understand why someone would want to devise some oddball way of 'testing' Bacteria House, where the 'real World' results woudn't be apparent, or why people test this media in a pond, and compare with another media, when they haven't even stuck to any of the 'rule of thumb' running principles in the first place? There is only one way to test it, and that is, to build a pond that is correctly utilising the media, and then run that pond with real Koi, with real potential, with an aim of getting 'real results', as opposed to trying to prove that it won't work!

    Any doubters here should take a trip to England. I will happily arrange and pay for your accomodation, and take you to see every Showered pond I know of. You can then speak to the owners, and see the Koi for yourselves, and then decide if it's all just 'hype'!? I'm not joking here, I'm serious!

    Best regards,

    Mike.

    Heck, I'll go out an photograph some Tosai I have raised myself if you wish, and then we can all comment on what we think of their futures?

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