Bakki shower thread continuation

[tewa]

hey george

Thanks mate, you are spot on for a few reasons, 1 beni is maintained in BH systems (showers). The other point is about valr, he has so graciously said the tests are for (among other reasons) people to try and find the formula of BH to produce the same thing at a cheaper price hehe. For the first time Valr is honest thank you. I find it hilarious that I have been banned for seemingly trying to promote a product on foreign soil whilst the locals there try to down grade BH but yet wanna test it to try and build something as good. You were spot on george

Jnorth
Mike was not referring to you as you are running the shower solely on a pond with turnover rates of a shower, he was referring to JR/JPR/james Reilly who is also doing his test but only as a add on on his main pond. This tower is just part of a setup. The various other tests he posted he was doing are in his opinion the right ways to test BH and its effectiveness.

DTBH
Great to hear your setup is going ahead.

Those that are wondering why there is a large hole now, it is mainly for showers that are putting in excess of 30,000L per shower (per 1m x 0.6 x0.3) they developed it for their extreme turnover rates. The pieces are far bigger and has more surface area per volume compared to the old one. Those are the two key points for its developments.

Mike sanden
Bring on the pictures buddy If everyone could grow their tosais here in Australia at 4cm a month we would have far better koi and we would all be so lucky

tewa

[Mike Snaden]

Hi all, Here is a copy of what I sent to Jim, so you can see what I was talking about...

Looks fair enough, but there doesn't seem to be enough info available.
How many Kilos of media are you running?
What are the dimensions of the system?
What is the pond gallonage?
What is the flow rate over the Shower?
Is there other filtration?
Does the pond have bottom drains?
How much water is being changed? Are both ponds catching full sun?
What is the KH and GH of your supply water, and pond water? <END>

So... As far as systems are concerned, the pond should be turned over at 200% per hour minimum, with a one metre long set of Showers being flowed at 3000gph. This pretty much concludes that one set will filter 1500 gallons. But, if you choose to flow a set at 4500gph, this is great, but don't expect this amount of media (50 to 60kgs) to cope with 50% more pond capacity, as it won't. But, this higher flow method will basically mean that the pond will be turned over at 300% per hour.

Using another filter alongside the Showers will greatly reduce the necessity for a large number of Showers. Using something like static Kaldnes K1 for fines filtration (see www.koi-uk.co.uk) works amazingly well, but only implement it is such a way that only about 25% of the ponds water is taken from the drains, through the static K1, and then over the Showers. The other 75% of the water drawn through the drains, is put directly over the Showers. This, I feel, is the best way to 'underflow' or 'undershower' a showered pond.

Water changes are necessary in the same proportion as a normal pond. But, I feel that it is best to trickle it in very slowly. Failure to change water will result in an increased TDS, and decreased KH. Contrary to popular beliefs, Momotaro's 1500 ton pond only has a minimal input of fresh water, nothing like the figures that I am told are being done!

Sunlight... This is a big issue, particularly if the water is clear. It will also hamper clarity in it's own right, due to algal growth on the walls of the pond, which will grow by day, and die of by night, or in bad weather, causing serious clarity issues. I feel that for the UK, a pond with about 60 to 80% shading to be ideal. And, it is much better for the pond to catch morning sun, rather than afternoon sun, since the ambient temperatures in the afternoon will be higher, which means that the sun will pick up the temperature faster in the afternoon. This kind of fluctuation isn't good. Too much sun will also damage the Beni of Koi, so bear this in mind.

Some people here in the UK are 'getting away' with as little as 100% turnover on a Showered pond. This is all very well, but with increased growth of the Koi, and hence, increased waste, these under-run ponds will soon reach their load limits. If you build a Showered pond, and don't stick to the design principles, you will eventually find problems with clarity, etc.

Mike.

[junglegeorge12]

The sun is a key point, and one of the big challenges we face here. To really run a fair test both ponds need to have equal light conditions. Maybe you could construct a pagoda or canopy over time jnorth to get both ponds equal?

I have also found if a waterfall extends out over the water and provides a deep area under for refuge, the koi will hang out there during the day reducing the beni damage. Or just a tarp on tent poles can be used.

I have found mikes, that with the right food and the right filtration and water parameters, the beni improves even in harsh sun conditions with good bloodlines. One thing clear to me here, is that any koi that looks good here will only improve in the states.

I know tewa, they are trying to get info and prep the market and are running a very nasty marketing campaign. The sad part would be if they sucked any breeders or manufacturers into believeing their nonsense and have thus set them up for failure.

As my dad used to say ,"If someone can't run and win just on their strengths then they should just run along now......" Point is you cannot really win a victory by pointing the ugly finger at others all day and trying to cast a dark shadow of untrustworthiness over them. They are trying to get foks to question and distrust BH, a sleazy tactic that always backfires. Just be trustworthy yourself and let others see it was what my dad taught me.

Especially when you have no better solution yourself. John Kerry tried that tactic and lost, and he wound up making himself look untrustworthy. The only respectable thing he did in that campaign was accept defeat graciously.

The need we all have as koi lovers is to keep our koi as best as possible and see them reach their fullest potential. BH meets that need better than any other media on the market right now. You cannot really compete with that unless you have a better solution, which does not exist at this date.

[jnorth]

Ok Everybody I added some more info to my site. Hopefully this will answer your questions. Some of it I added in the top section and I also added some more to the notes section at the bottom. Please check it out and make any more suggestions. I'm listening . I hope to have the flow over the bakki to 100% by tomorrow. Ran out of sunlight today. And I am going to add more lava. Unfortunately the bags dont say how much are in them but they are roughly the size of a bag of mulch you would find at Home Depot. I have 4 bags in at the moment as well as one sheet of black Matala. If there are any other test changes to be made I would like to make them by no latter then this Sunday. Since it takes roughly 21 days to seed a filter I don't think any changes this early in the test would have a drastic effect on the test but I'd like to not make any more changes after Sunday just in case. Thanks for the help I do appreciate it.

[James P]

Just read this entire thread. 'wacked' comes to mind? But instead of being insulting let me tell a story and see if the ‘bright bulbs’ among us get the greater lesson--



I watched a special on the Discovery channel about a famous snake charmer based in village in Thailand. He was fearless and worked with the deadly cobra, handling them, challenging them and even wrapping them around his neck. He was fearless as he had been bitten many times before and it was 'common knowledge' among local snake charmers that when bitten by a cobra you gain immunity as your body recognizes and builds immunity to the venom. After several bites, the charmer is said to be immune. And the additional secret of this immunity was found in an herb that was rubbed on the bite to draw out most of the poison and detoxify the rest. A perfect system- slow acquired immunity aided by a special herb found in every garden. True believers among the snake charmers stake their lives on this system every day.

So when the charmer got bitten by an annoyed king cobra, he confidently went on with the show as he surely had immunity to cobra venom by now. Besides, the herb that cured any effects was growing just feet away in his garden.

What the charmer did not know was the biological realities of the ‘dealer of death’ he had so carelessly handled. It seems that cobras are sensible, almost frugal, in their dispensing of hard to make venom. In fact, they often bite but only selectively inject this precious life ending elixir. Our snake charmer only assumed he had been injected before. In reality and 20/20 hindsight, he was just bitten and not injected those pervious times. And so the belief of the entire snake charming community was not fact based- just assumption based. To complicate things, the age, size and diet of the snake creates venom of different lethal levels. So immunity, if possible, would have to be species and even individual specific.

Poor snake charmer. The herb was useless and has no detoxifying abilities whatsoever according to scientists who studied the herb after the fact. Another unfortunate assumption based ‘truth’ passed among snake charmers.

Snake charmer died of his bite in a matter of hours.

Long live FIR!

[Theron]

A learned man came to me once.He said, "I know the way, -- come."And I was overjoyed at this.Together we hastened.Soon, too soon, were weWhere my eyes were useless,And I knew not the ways of my feet.I clung to the hand of my friend;But at last he cried, "I am lost."Stephen Crane

[luke frisbee]

JR,
it is "whacked" with an "h"

[junglegeorge12]

I just read your post JR and the only word that came to mind is 'whacko'.

What does a snakecharmer have to do with filter media??? Let me think real hard......oh yeah!... NOTHING!!!!

part of pr is not to establish facts, but to create suspicion and fear through mental pictures and associations that in reality do not even exist...politics of weak men never win in the end......

one fact though is that all of the critics are from one portion of one country, gee that is odd.....might they know one another and have an agenda of their own?????

I do believe there are also a few water treatment and emerging fish product companies in that region as well.........

[Mike T]

JG12:

Your quote: "What does a snake charmer have to do with filter media??? Let me think real hard......oh yeah!... NOTHING!!!!"

It's not the charmer or the media, its the analogy...(Analogy..n..Resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike

Maybe JR is being too sophisticated in his posts... Think real hard about it some more and if you really can't figure out what he's saying, send me an email and I'll try and explain it to you...I don't want to get sucked into this thread as I'm finding it boring...

BTW: I use and am very happy with BHM... Don't especially agree with JR on this issue, but fully understand where he's coming from... He hate's snake oil (no pun intended) and their promoters, seen too many over the years...

Aloha! Mike T

[Mike Snaden]

I think that what JR is saying, is that everyone using BHM will get bitten on the arse by it sooner or later, and end up with no Koi, despite some using it for over 3 years now in the UK.