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Thread: Bakki shower thread continuation

  1. #141
    Tategoi
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    Mar 2004
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    Hey Mike Hope all is well with you in the UK...

    Couple of questions that need clarification in my mind... It is my understanding that when Bak Showers and BH media was first introduced the promotion was that a user could draw water from the bottom drain and route it directly to the Bak shower and that it would never clog and have to be maintained, if the hourly turnover was 1.5-3 times the pond volume and that a constant 10% flow of new water was maintained 24/7...

    Was it true then and is it still true today?

    Second, it is my understanding that Maeda san surrounds his 150 ton pond with submerged BH media and that water is circulated through that before being routed through the Bak showers above the pond...

    Is this true?

    And lastly, from the Momotaro Video I've seen, the 150 ton pond, submerged media and Bak Showers are drained and cleaned once a year...

    If this is true, why is it cleaned?

    Would appreciate it if you could clear this up... As I've often said, I use BH media in two Bak Shower setups on two separate ponds and am very happy with the results of the installations... But would like to get the facts straight in my mind...

    Aloha! Mike T

  2. #142
    Nisai
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    Jul 2005
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    82 Miles east of Waddy
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    115
    Hi all

    I hope J R is wrong i wish there where a magic meda,

    But its a bit hard to swallow especialy on a stand alone sytem,

    But only time will tell,

    And if any of you guys find a floor on using this system you wont
    be shy on letting us all know.



    Steve W

  3. #143
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    May 2004
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    Hey Mike T hope you dont mind me answering for Mike

    Couple of questions that need clarification in my mind... It is my understanding that when Bak Showers and BH media was first introduced the promotion was that a user could draw water from the bottom drain and route it directly to the Bak shower and that it would never clog and have to be maintained, if the hourly turnover was 1.5-3 times the pond volume and that a constant 10% flow of new water was maintained 24/7...

    You definitely can feed bottom drain, it does not clog, turnover minimum of 1.5 but the more the better. 10%flow in definitely no, it depends on stocking rate. Best to flow in 24/7 but you can change every two to three days.

    Second, it is my understanding that Maeda san surrounds his 150 ton pond with submerged BH media and that water is circulated through that before being routed through the Bak showers above the pond...

    That is definitely true mike. The submerge chambers were the original filtration and thus they continue to use it. All new ponds are built only on showers.

    And lastly, from the Momotaro Video I've seen, the 150 ton pond, submerged media and Bak Showers are drained and cleaned once a year...

    If this is true, why is it cleaned?

    Yes this is true, I dont know the real reason why maeda wants it done every year but its not because the pond is dirty or full of sediment. This cleaning is also a chance for the annual measurement of the koi that live in that pond.

    hope this helps

    tewa
    There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
    http://www.tewakoi.com

  4. #144
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Dec 2003
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    Bristol, England, UK
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    Hi Mike,

    Yes, the intention was/is to put bottom water directly over the Showers, without blocking. As for the 10% changes... this is something that hasn't been quantified as such. But, I have advocated using a TDS meter to determine whether the water changes are enough or not. JR seems to have quoted me on Koiphen as saying that water changes aren't necessary, and that a TDS meter will tell you if any water needs changing at all. This has never been the case! I have always maintained that water in a Showered pond should be changed in the same percentage as a conventional pond. The TDS meter is something that I would use to maintain good water in any kind of pond! JR feels that the TDS meter is worthless, and an ORP meter is the only way to go. But, I feel that the ORP meter alone is worthless, as I can urinate into a bottle, add a little PP, and easily hit 400mV, but it would still be bad for the Koi.

    As for the 1500 ton pond... these Showers are an add on to the pond, and as such, the water that feeds them, is drawn though the pond wall, straight into a pump chamber, and up over the Showers. For the life of me, I can't figure why they clean the 1500 ton pond?! Daisuke says that it is because the pond is so big, with the drains being so far apart. They literally scrub the walls and floor, even though, to my mind, they are always clean anyway. It doesn't matter how fantastic the water is, they still drain it! As for water changes on this pond... 3 to 5% per day is the norm for most of the year.

    I too am getting bored with this thread. It always starts the same way, and ends the same way. Every few months, we go through the same routine, and have done for the last two and a half years. It doesn't seem to matter how well the systems work, or that three people have now managed to grow small Tosai Kohaku/Sanke, to become 70/71 Nisai, or that Maurice's tiny fry thrive without mortalities, the systems still get bad press, only from those that haven't tried them, and still refuse to. It almost seems that whereas some (like me) have a vested interest in it's 'market strength', others seem to have a vested interest in it failing.

    Mike.

  5. #145
    Sansai
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    Sorry guys, I am at my favourite topic again....hikkui!

    For the life of me, I can't figure why they clean the 1500 ton pond?! Daisuke says that it is because the pond is so big, with the drains being so far apart.

    Momotaro may have their reasons but to me drains being so far apart (hence possibility of sludge accumulation in the pipes) is the give-away. We have always been adviced by breeders to springclean our pond yearly to hopefully keep diseases and esp hikkui at bay. I would presume that is their concern too.

    I have a question. Is there any anaerobic activity in submerged BH?

    Thanks.

  6. #146
    Nisai Mike Snaden's Avatar
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    Hi Dtbh,

    Good point! Momotaro feel that since they went to Showers, Hikkui hasn't been a problem. Perhaps the cleaning as you have said, is largely to be sure that Hikkui is avoided, since this problem can potentially ruin the biggest and best Koi that they have... or more to the point, their customers Koi!

    Mike.

  7. #147
    Jumbo
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    Thank you Mike S--- Your timing couldn't have been better!


    Koi get Hikkui
    I use BH
    my fish don't get hikkui
    therefore BH curses hikkui

    And if the 'great thinker' george were to carry the logic one step further--
    FIR radiation killed the hikkui!

    Mike. please stay away from cobras. Your pal, JR

  8. #148
    Jumbo
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    Dec 2003
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    Some people here in the UK are 'getting away' with as little as 100% turnover on a Showered pond. This is all very well, but with increased growth of the Koi, and hence, increased waste, these under-run ponds will soon reach their load limits. If you build a Showered pond, and don't stick to the design principles, you will eventually find problems with clarity, etc.

    Mike S. You posted this in a previous post a few pages back. First, I appreciate your patience with me as most dealers would react like caged tigers protecting their cub. I think it shows a quite confidence in your product- which is impressive.



    As you know, I think that you and Maeda have put together an excellent wet/dry filter arrangement Ė nothing more and nothing less. You are getting all the benefits associated with wet/dry systems and certainly can impress beginners whose first experience with biofiltration is a green machine or similar brush/matt arrangement. Iíve written on this board, NI and Koiphen about the general benefits of TT and wet/dry action and we donít need to go over that again.



    In my testing, I see that a certain flow rate is needed to actually wet all BH media on a continuing basis. Additionally, the faster you turn water, the more rapidly you remove volatile nitrogen gas species. All good.



    But you seem to saying here in this quote that organic management is dependent on turnover rate. And that slower turn over rate will result in organic presence, yet fast turn over rate will result in organic elimination. Can you explain this further please? Also you have often said that you have many experiencing the same success. Can you tell me how many so I can get an idea of the population pool that is experiencing this success? JR

  9. #149
    Sansai
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    Dear Mike

    I too am getting bored with this thread. It always starts the same way, and ends the same way. Every few months, we go through the same routine, and have done for the last two and a half years. It doesn't seem to matter how well the systems work, or that three people have now managed to grow small Tosai Kohaku/Sanke, to become 70/71 Nisai, or that Maurice's tiny fry thrive without mortalities, the systems still get bad press, only from those that haven't tried them, and still refuse to. It almost seems that whereas some (like me) have a vested interest in it's 'market strength', others seem to have a vested interest in it failing.

    The problem I see in many situations is that most of us (myself included) sometimes try to read between the lines and tend to look at the ugly side of any posting. I think the following most of us have agreed.

    1. BH works (at least in the "short" term as BH product life is still in its infancy in koi terms). Contention or rather its longterm effects only time will tell.

    2. Low maintenance. There will be hardly any sedimentation at such high turnover rate. This works for me as I do daily siphoning for my submerged system. But then noone as yet knows what is the longterm effects of sediments being pulverised into solution. Again only time will tell.

    3. Good clear quality water...at least that is what I get from the postings here. To me clear water, low tds or high ORP are just guidelines. There are many ways to "cheat" to get clear water, good tds or ORP. As such I prefer to use real life observations to assess my water quality. Besides good appetite and growth, I observe their spontaneous healing capacity. Kois are prone to have superficial scratches and sometimes even deep abrasions. To me if water quality is good, one does not need to do anything (deep abrasions included) and the kois will still recover without any sequelae. Kois in the wild gets no treatment (I presume they recover spontaneously). Is that your experience with your kois and your clients' regarding non-treatment?

    4. Expensive. Hence cost-effectiveness and alternatives have been suggested.


    The main contention is FIR. To me I don't give a d*mn if there is FIR, if FIR stands for Far Infrared Radiation or Far Into Ridiculousness. If it works it is good enough for me to try. I can try a koi. I don't see why I cannot try a filter. Especially when I had never tried a TT or a wet/dry system.

    I see you are the only strong advocate of BH who insist on 10% water change daily. I do this for my pond for various reasons and I would agree with you on this even for BH.

    Thanks. dtbh

  10. #150
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    Hi JR

    Please describe your setup before bacteria house tests.

    Please describe how you are testing the bacteria house and what you have found so far.

    Please tell us what your growth rates are like, since you have used the benefits of TTS and wet/drys for about 20 years even before maeda.

    Since bacteria house is no better than any other media especially in your system (which has settlement) you must have one of the best growth rates in a hobbyist pond, especially since you have a head start of using wet/drys for so many years, even over maeda.

    Oh by the way has your foam rafts gone yet?

    But wait a minute lets take a few steps back all you did was change the media in your towers over to BH (only 2 of 4 towers) and you are still using your settlement chamber, that must mean there were enough DOC levels in your existing water even before the switch to the media. And this is the result of a refined pond system of over 20 years of matured media.

    Who is worse, snake charmers and snake oil sellers or the person sayin snake oil is bullshit and their clear liquid is only as good as snake oil.

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