Bakki shower thread continuation

[woodyaht]

I am not saying stay off it, I was just taken aback by the first sentence of your first post coming in saying "wacked". I understand you were trying to prove a point, but the points have been tried before, and all that has come of it was Bullsh!t fighting and bickering, and here we go again.


I agree with Aquatori 100% except that I am using it but just put it in a month ago. If it works in my set up great, if it doesn't it will go in the trash.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by woodyaht I know I am probably going to be slammed for what I am about to say, but here goes. I am still subscribed to this thread so I still get e-mails for a new post. Since the BS started early on in the thread, I quit reading this thread entirely. But when I recieved a e-mail that JR had posted, I opened it up. Nancy, This is Tewa's thread and numerous people have kept it calm for a while. If they want to keep trying to figure out BH, go for it. JR, you are a very well respected person in the hobby. You guys beat this topic to a bloody pulp on Koiphen, and didn't get anywhere. For someone of your standing in the hobby, why do you feel the need to continue posting on this knowing that it is just going to create more drama. Beating a dead horse comes to mind.

I don't care who started the thread, I quit reading it also when the BS started. There are many things we could all learn. But when the name calling and BS starts, it needs to quit.
alot of the people on this board quit going to other boards becuase of the BS.
P.S. I don't slam people for there honest opinions.

[Mike Snaden]

Hi JR,

I never once said that BHM would cure Hikkui. Momotaro have never told me that it would. But, they dirty filters cause Hikkui, and that since running Showers, Hikkui is no longer a problem. My interpretation of this, is that the biofilm on the BHM is such that it tends to be less dirty, and hence, not cause Hikkui as easily.

As for Dtbh, I agree, I don't care about the FIR, I am only interested in the results that I get. Since I am buying/selling/growing extremely expensive Tosai, I can't afford to cut corners. I am not saying that the World should swith to Showers, and never have. But, those that are running them, feel that they are getting results that they have never had before.

Yes, Cliff Neale is running K1 alongside his 18,000 gallon pond, and all water from this then goes over the Showers. But, this pond has absolutely NO Settlement. He then has a pond of 8000 gallons, solely Showered (no settlement). This is his best performing pond (by his admission, not mine). He then has a 2000 gallon pond (solely Showers, no settlement). Four small ponds in his shed are re-circulated off the 8000 gallon pond.

Mike.

[James P]

wacked or whacked (the southern Florida variation and proper king’s English) is aimed at over the top claims and/or mis interpretations of certain common observations. Cures for disease, no more deaths of new koi, growth clams and now color claims are what I'm referring to- not the ability of the media and the system to convert ammonia, drive off volatile gases and improve oxygenation. These basic realities, common to TTs and wet/dry systems are being suggested as proprietary and that is just plain inaccurate. Claims of ‘special powers’ are just plain silly. I’d like to prove that in a series of tests. Only that. And if I’m wrong, I’ve wiped egg off my face before, I can do it again. But somehow I think I’ll remain ‘egg free’ throughout.

There are three guys selling this stuff that are at the root of the problem- not me. I'm just not willing to play along like some of the more naive and passive types on these boards- there in lies the rub. And I guess that’s what makes me the bad guy.

As the claims mount and the investigations continue I’m sure it will all come into perspective. Until then, marketing vs. intellectual curiosity will conflict Chris, just the way it is. Should we not question the claims and go like lemmings over the edge together? Sometimes going along just to get alone is not a wise thing. And you may not have been around long enough in this hobby to know this but many times the innocents are used to sell product to the rest. I’ve seen it many times. Time always sorted this all out and I’m sure it will sort this one out as well. Does any one remember when every state of the art pond has magnets on the return lines and siporax in the last chamber of every filter? Has anyone heard of the new product BIOHOME? Also said to perform multiple biological functions. How about BioHealthy or zeolite that produces FIR. They are all out there and some one is ordering them as we speak!

JR

[keokoi]

In all honesty... I don't mind the thread even if it is a dead horse. Nasa didn't send a man on the moon by everyone saying OK when it was just an Idea..

Just like T.V. if you don't want to watch, Turn the Channel... Many other things to read.


Joe

[Mike Snaden]

Hi Jr, the bit that worries me is your statement that you would like to prove that the claims of magic powers are silly, not to build a proper pond solely Showered, and see if the results defy your logic, or not.

I don't go around to customers ponds trying to convince them that everything looks so much better since they went Showered. They come to me to tell what is happening, not the other way around. When a pond is completely converted from one 'state of the art system' to Showers, I feel that this is actually a good test, because in these cases, people can see their Koi behave and improve over what they had before (or not).

I have a 8000 gallon pond here, which to my mind is a lousy system (onlookers think otherwise). Look at the Koi in that pond, compared to my Showered ponds, and you'll see a marked difference in the condition of the Kois colour and skin, and yet the parameters on the big pond are very similar to the Showered ponds. Jim, I think you desparately need to get over here to the UK, so that I can run some snake oil into you!!! So, c'mon, if you aren't going to build a proper Showered pond, at least let me take you out for a few days touring the UK and Ireland looking at these ponds. I promise that neither Maurice, nor myself will dig a hole and bury you! C'mon, book that flight, I'll take care of the rest!

Mike.

[woodyaht]

Quote: Originally Posted by keokoi In all honesty... I don't mind the thread even if it is a dead horse. Nasa didn't send a man on the moon by everyone saying OK when it was just an Idea.. Just like T.V. if you don't want to watch, Turn the Channel... Many other things to read. Joe

Yup I agree 100% again Joe, It's just when I saw JR's post, and read back through the thread, and people were "playing" nice before JR, I figured I'd give my opinion.

Many of us migrated to this board because of the BS on other boards as Nancy stated, and I would just like to see it stay that way. People can discuss the pros and cons of a product in a adult manner, and taking child like stabs with intellegent wording is just that child like with an adult twist.

From what I have seen in JR's posts on boards in the past, he can be very educational, to down right over bearing as he tries to slam you, but he does so in a round about way and people support him as I would guess most look up to him being the esteamed "judge" and are afraid of authority or confronting him.

I have to deal with very high power customers day in and day out that have egos the size of the Grand Canyon, and believe they are above you because of the knowledge they have and what they have accomplished. JR adding in that "I may not have been around long enough in this hobby", well right there he's sliding in his ego of his years of knowledge in the hobby. Doesn't matter how long I have been in the hobby, most things we deal with in life boil down to common sense, and the ability to retain what we learn from past idiotic mistakes we've all been taken by. When it comes to the marketing of BH, you don't have to have years of knowledge in the koi hobby to understand that, the claims made about it are far fetched, but many people have proven that it works as a effective media.

I am sure that JR will come back with a very subbtle slam against me as he has done so very well in the past to others, do I care, not one bit. Will he judge my fish someday? Probably, will I expect him to look down on me during judging, Yup!

But in my day in a day out life, I get more respect from my customers for speaking my peace than sitting by and not letting them walk all over me.

Joe, Click

[James P]

Chris, I think you are on a little ego trip of your own! The purpose of asking if you have been around long enough was to reference the fads of the past that were going to revolutionize the hobby. How you worked that into a personal slam is beyond me? I see you have a pretty good dose of hostility towards me so I suggest you avoid reading my posts- its really that simple? Best of luck in the koi hobby.

[James P]

Mike, I'll be over for the Northern ZNA show two weeks from now. How far are you from the Manchester airport? JR

[Maurice]

Keep on testing Jim.

When you in Japan this fall?

Maurice.