Bakki shower thread continuation

[greg]

OK - I am a huge sceptic on the FIR theory and i agree with Mike M that plugging this side of Bakki House MAY discredit it slightly as some people will laugh it off.

What we do know is that Bakki house gives good water quality, Good Koi growth, excellant oxygenation, works well in the showers.

The downsides are running costs i.e - higher powered pumps (200% turnover), initial purchase cost, Noise and finally ambiant temp absorbtion.

For me personally Bakki House and Showers were a non-starter on my current pond build for cost reasons and my nieghbour likes any excuse to moan. That said it doesn't mean that i will never use Bakki House / showers. Another time another place you never know.

I agree that more long term test by hobbyists on there own ponds is the way forward now to see how BH performs on a day to day basis. What is the wear factor like compared to say lava rock? I for one would want to know what happens to the solids - i cannot accept that they just disapear they must go somewhere. Surely on heavily stocked ponds there is too much for bacteria to absorb.

What is the cleaning regime like on showers? How much waste is found trapped inside them? (As the pictures of active media i have seen it seems so clean)

What about this:- FIR is heat (this we know) now the water is crashing over the media at 200% per hour of the pond volume.
So on an average medium level hobbyists pond (5000g??) you have a turnover of 10,000g an hour. A heated pond to say 23deg C.

Would the friction of that volume of heated water make any differance? Is the effect of the media reduced in colder climes? During winter do hobbyists who have unheated ponds notice the differance in performance? Are parameters up? Clarity down?

Why is it that BH seems less effective submerged even with air being blasted in underneath it? Surely the same effect with the same amount (%) turnover of water passing through it. The added air is also mimicking the crashing water.

Just thoughts and idea's not conclusions,

[Valarc]

Originally Posted by RogerMoo

Valarc, btw when did you start rearing koi and start using trickle tower. What media do you use for your trickle tower? Lava Rock? If that is the case, you would have known the setback and posted in koiphen.com. Why are you mentioning it now?

Cheers

Rearing koi would be quite a generous description of it. I prefer to say I foolishly bought some petsmart koi without knowing a thing about them and dumped them in a puddle in my backyard. That was before I came to any of these forums... I'm here to learn about the fish! I built the trickle tower (with lava rock) after learning that the filter I was sold was horribly inadequate for even a tiny puddle, and I just wanted to find something to control the ammonia. Now that I've learned more, I'm trying to get approval from my Homeowner's Association to build a proper koi pond.

I've specifically made it a point to not argue the merits of BHM as a filter media, because I am a complete newbie in this hobby and admit readily that I know practically nothing about the fish. I am, however, qualified to discuss the science of the FIR claims, and there is zero doubt in my mind that these claims are utter nonsense.

The reason I didn't bring up the lava rock grit thing was because, like I said, I was only trying to discuss the science of the radiation. I could care less if you use BHM, lava rock, k1, or william shatner's toupee, as long as you see good results. When you start claiming the media has magic rays which make it far superior to everything else, that's when I chime in.

I think others have said it a lot more eloquently than I can, because I admit I'm confrontational in nature when faced with ignorance. The FIR claims do the hobby and the product a great disservice. If so many people use and love it, it would be much more productive to use their success as a selling point.

[jacovors]

God help us all

[Valarc]

Originally Posted by RogerMoo

What have you shown that are relevant? Show us! All you used are fancy English...

if not, I do wish you stay off Koi-Bito inorder not to start another 'war' for nothing. Till you found proofs to support your beliefs, please stop postings whatever you wanted to post for we have all read them - either in koichat or koiphen... so no need to repeat once again.

Cheers

I specifically addressed many of the scientific claims and debunked them. I took the articles posted by others and explained why linking them to the FIR claims was incorrect. I explained why the FIR graph is bad science. You're right, I didn't post a link to a website with a study saying "far infrared does not break up water clusters" for the same reason I didn't post a link to a website with scientific research saying "the moon isn't made of green cheese". There is a point at which something is so absurd that it would be pointless to go into a detailed study to disprove it. Very basic science and any understanding of the world around us at all shows that the FIR stuff is complete nonsense.

As far as telling me not to come to this thread and say my piece, you're showing the same cowardice tewa showed. He himself re-posted the same thing from NI, to koichat, to koiphen. He just took his arguments from koiphen and reposted them here. Yet somehow it's ok for him to re-hash his arguments but not me?

I actually DO agree with tewa - everyone post your EXPERIENCES, real facts showing how you have benefitted from using BHM, or if you've had a bad experience share that as well. Leave the FIR fairy tails to die in the past where they belong. If tewa had made this post without trying to get a cheap dig in at myself and others from ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FORUMS it would have been a whole lot more productive. Just like if the advertisements for BHM left out the FIR crap, it would be a lot more productive.

Hopefully we can leave the past behind us and get some good testimonials about the media, because that's going to help us all a whole lot more.

[tewa]

Originally Posted by woodyaht

Tewa,

I watched the post on the other board, and the debate was absoulute BS! I quit posting on the other board a few months back when another idiotic debate took place, I don't care to be involved with people that belive they are more knowledgable about any given subject to try to put other people down. I really had a hard time not posting to support you and saying what was on my mind, but it wouldn't have mattered anyways. The way I feel is, if BH works as a effective media, and you have the $$$ to purchase it, then use it! I am using it submerged in my filter and skimmer, but just put it in a few weeks ago, so it will be a while before I see any good or bad results, but I think it will do good for what I am using it for.

The mudslinging that went on during that debate was unbelievable!

So the FIR is a weird sales pitch, the bottom line is BH doesn't degrade, where Lava Rock does, so if someone wants to invest their $$$ in BH to have a product that will last a lot longer than Lava Rock, that's each of our own choices. I'd rather buy something that last longer, and if you think about it if Lava Rock degrades over time, the surface area will always be dynamic, where as BH is supposed to last forever, no Lava Rock sand in the bottom of the pond from degradation, I'll stick with BH!





DAMN you for trying to get free advertiving for a product you sell! Ummm, by the way how much is shipping from Australia to the US for BH?
Like you are pushing your product when theres already a dealer in the US, and most of the members over there are US based????? What BS!!!!!!!!!

Hi woodyaht

Thanks i will let you in on a little secret i am gonna send my Bh to US and sell it so cheap and so much that i will make a billion dollars hehe

You are right there is a group that are just no words can explain and i have been told by a friend that knows the koiphen people well that they often attack like a pack of wolves.

i wasn really trying to convince those people but post info that i found and am learning from for the others that didn know but were interested.

tewa

[tewa]

Originally Posted by kingkong

What a wild ride it was. I logged a lot of time in reading and self-educating myself on that one. Teewaa, can i get some credits on my continued education requirements this year for the State of Florida?

You have earned so much points I believe you deserve a certificate heck i recommend that the state of Florida procure you as one of their staff to tutor the next generation of hobbyist

They have banned me totally there and have reopend the thread, there is one thing that i do miss heaps its those emoticons.

I will not bother to address Valr directly as I feel this person is trying to turn things sour again. He has every right to state his opinion but why not do it on another board or his own thread on this board. I really wanna stay clear of this thread turning sour again I hope this person has the courtesy to just start his own thread.

I just want this thread kept clean as I know that this person style of posting leads to immediate confrontation. So I hope that this person will just start his own thread.

Others can feel free to post their ideas, I will refrain from saying anything like you are wrong and refrain from directing an answer at anyone in particular just my himble opinion and belief.

I hope to really keep this thread clean. I will continue to ignore that person and hope that others do to so we can avoid any ill feelings that we and this person may have towards each other. I know its naive to try and keep a thread clean with no fighting. I just want to share the information I find and others have found and will find. I hope those that will share (if they do not agree) will not direct any slender to momotaro or any other dealer but just post their science.

tewa

[dick benbow]

HI TEWA!

While i appreciate the passion you have for expressing your beliefs, I'm not sure this forum is one that you need to bring along baggage from another forum.

i THINK IT WOULD BEST SERVE YOUR PASSION TO SIMPLY SHARE WHAT YOUR LEARNING and let the KB group contribute their ideas and concerns .

I've always had a lot of pride for this board because of the good respectful nature of our group. I think you'll agree that this is a great group to share convictions with.

[tewa]

[quote=MikeM]Tewa, KingKong, Valarc: If you are going to continue the discussion on this board, please remember that the tone of the postings should be in keeping with the tone of this board. I think too many participants in the Koiphen thread got overly emotional and perhaps a bit frazzled? ....I think pretty much all that could be said about Bacteria House media and far infra-red rays was said (often thrice), but I would certainly enjoy learning of anything new.

I agree MikeM I have chosen to not post anything directed at that person. I hope that he can start his own thread. I really want to keep this one the way we post here on KB.

I think a sad point in focusing on the questionable science of FIR is that the benefits of a shower filter (Bakki or otherwise) has gotten lost in the debate.

I agree and I think the experiences of users is just as important as the finding of new information on FIR.

However, Tewa, all of the good done by these products gets lost when the discussion turns to FIR. The more the discussion focuses on FIR, credibility is lost on the most important aspect of these products: real people have had excellent results using them. Please keep that in mind

Mike I agree the most important is the results such as fish health, fish growth ease of maintenance. The results sell themselves, in UK this is very evident. I have read on koichat that Cliff neale has managed to raise a 24cm momotaro tosai to over 70cm as a nisai, this matches the biggest nisai produced at momotaro and this was with a pond of 36000L that uses the onimoshi streamflow concept. I know that the more I research FIR the more it seems I am reducing the credibility of the product to new hobbyist that read this but in my humble opinion there is something definitely about FIR that we do not fully understand because there must be a reason why Maeda went to that much trouble to get the increased levels of FIR. Most importantly the end result of bakki shower users is great. This is my own personal endeavor to understand what maeda says of FIR no dealer or agent has tried to understand it as much and I would agree there is no need to since the results is the most important. I am not trying to research for extra sales but I am really trying to find out for myself and I can swear that when people in Aus ask about BH I only sell the results (what they can see, fish health, fish growth and beauty of the fish). I have enough trying trying to tell them that the fish waste magically dissapears since I cant see it in the pond, in the shower or in the media as people find it very hard to believe that it just gets consumed


Last night I was going through the koiphen thread to copy the information I found useful, I was shocked to see how much energy I had spent over the last two and a half weeks to post against others arguments (and i had only got through fifty pages still got thirty more to go) when that time could have been used to find more information. That is why I hope this thread wont turn out like that.

tewa

[tewa]

Originally Posted by dick benbow

HI TEWA!

While i appreciate the passion you have for expressing your beliefs, I'm not sure this forum is one that you need to bring along baggage from another forum.

i THINK IT WOULD BEST SERVE YOUR PASSION TO SIMPLY SHARE WHAT YOUR LEARNING and let the KB group contribute their ideas and concerns .

I've always had a lot of pride for this board because of the good respectful nature of our group. I think you'll agree that this is a great group to share convictions with.

Totally agree with you Dick I think the KB group is fantastic

[tewa]

http://www.answers.com/topic/infrared-1

infrared radiation, electromagnetic radiation having a wavelength in the range from c.75 × 10−6 cm to c.100,000 × 10−6 cm (0.000075–0.1 cm). Infrared rays thus occupy that part of the electromagnetic spectrum with a frequency less than that of visible light and greater than that of most radio waves, although there is some overlap. The name infrared means “below the red,” i.e., beyond the red, or lower-frequency (longer wavelength), end of the visible spectrum. Infrared radiation is thermal, or heat, radiation. It was first discovered in 1800 by Sir William Herschel, who was attempting to determine the part of the visible spectrum with the minimum associated heat in connection with astronomical observations he was making. In 1847, A. H. L. Fizeau and J. B. L.

Foucault showed that infrared radiation has the same properties as visible light, being reflected, refracted, and capable of forming an interference pattern. Infrared radiation is typically produced by objects whose temperature is above 10K.

There are many applications of infrared radiation. A number of these are analogous to similar uses of visible light. Thus, the spectrum of a substance in the infrared range can be used in chemical analysis much as the visible spectrum is used. Radiation at discrete wavelengths in the infrared range is characteristic of many molecules. The temperature of a distant object can also be determined by analysis of the infrared radiation from the object. Radiometers operating in the infrared range serve as the basis for many instruments, including heat-seeking devices in missiles and devices for spotting and photographing persons and objects in the dark or in fog. Medical uses of infrared radiation range from the simple heat lamp to the technique of thermal imaging, or thermography. A thermograph of a person can show areas of the body where the temperature is much higher or lower than normal, thus indicating some medical problem. Thermography has also been used in industry and other applications. Some lasers produce infrared radiation. A recent development has been the expansion of research in infrared astronomy; infrared sensors are sent aloft in balloons, rockets, and satellites to study the infrared radiation reaching the earth from other parts of the solar system and beyond.

infrared radiation (in-fruh-red)

Invisible radiation in the part of the electromagnetic spectrum characterized by wavelengths just longer than those of ordinary visible red light and shorter than those of microwaves or radio waves.

The heat we feel from a glowing coal or an incandescent light bulb is from infrared rays.

Infrared (IR) radiation is electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength longer than visible light, but shorter than microwave radiation. The name means "below red" (from the Latin infra, "below"), red being the color of visible light of longest wavelength. Infrared radiation spans three orders of magnitude and has wavelengths between 700 nm and 1 mm.

Different regions in the infrared
IR is often subdivided into:

near infrared NIR, IR-A DIN, 0.7–1.4 µm in wavelength, defined by the water absorption, and commonly used in fiber optic telecommunication because of low attenuation losses in the SiO2 glass (silica) medium.
short wavelength IR SWIR, IR-B DIN, 1.4–3 µm, water absorption increases significantly at 1450 nm
mid wavelength IR MWIR, IR-C DIN, also intermediate-IR (IIR), 3–8 µm
long wavelength IR LWIR, IR-C DIN, 8–15 µm)
far infrared FIR, 15–1000 µm
However, these terms are not precise, and are used differently in various studies i.e. near (0.7–5 µm) / mid (5–30 µm) / long (30–1000 µm). Especially at the telecom-wavelengths the spectrum is further subdivided into individual bands, due to limitations of detectors, amplifiers and sources. Infrared radiation is often linked to heat, since objects at room temperature or above will emit radiation mostly concentrated in the mid-infrared band (see black body).


The common nomenclature is justified by the different human response to this radiation (near infrared = the red you just cannot see, far IR = thermal radiation), other definitions follow different physical mechanisms (emission peaks, vs. bands, water absorption) and the newest follow technical reasons (The common silicon detectors are sensitive to about 1050 nm, while InGaAs sensitivity starts around 950 nm and ends between 1700 and 2200 nm, depending on the specific configuration). Unfortunately the international standards for these specifications are not currently available.



Plot of atmospheric transmittance in the infrared region of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Telecommunication bands in the infrared
Optical telecommunication in the near infrared is technically often separated to different frequency bands because of availability of light sources, transmitting /absorbing materials (fibers) and detectors.

O-band 1260–1360 nm
E-band 1360–1460 nm
S-band 1460–1530 nm
C-band 1530–1565 nm
L-band 1565–1625 nm
U-band 1625–1675 nm

The Earth as an infrared emitter
The Earth's surface absorbs visible radiation from the sun and re-emits much of the energy as infrared back to the atmosphere. Certain gases in the atmosphere, chiefly water vapor, absorb this infrared, and re-radiate it in all directions including back to Earth. Thus, the greenhouse effect, keeps the atmosphere and surface much warmer than if the infrared absorbers were absent from the atmosphere.

Night Vision
Infrared is used in night-vision equipment, when there is insufficient visible light to see an object. The radiation is detected and turned into an image on a screen, hotter objects showing up brighter, enabling the police and military to acquire thermally significant targets, such as human beings and automobiles.

Smoke is more transparent to infrared than to visible light, so fire fighters use infrared imaging equipment when working in smoke-filled areas because it does not interfere with other devices in adjoining rooms - this is especially important in areas of high population density (IR does not penetrate walls).


Other Imaging
In infrared photography, infrared filters are used to capture only the infrared spectrum. Digital cameras often use infrared blockers. Cheaper digital cameras and some camera phones which do not have appropriate filters can "see" infrared, appearing as a bright white colour (try pointing a TV remote at your digital camera). This is especially pronounced when taking pictures of subjects near bright areas (such as near a lamp), where the resulting infrared interference can wash out the image.


Thermography
Infrared radiation can be used to remotely determine the temperature of objects (if the emissivity is known). This is termed thermography, or in the case of very hot objects in the NIR or visible it is termed pyrometry. Thermography (thermal imaging) is mainly used in military and industrial applications but the technology is reaching the public market in the form of infrared cameras on cars due to the massively reduced production costs.


Heating
Infrared radiation is used in Infrared saunas to heat the sauna's occupants
(An infrared sauna is an area that heats it's occupants with heaters that emit Far Infrared Ray radiation. Unlike conventional saunas, which use heated steam, an infrared sauna does not heat the air. An infrared sauna is usually a wooden box containing several infrared heaters, although an infrared sauna could be open air and still heat the user's in the same manner. In essence, the sauna box creates the atmosphere of the sauna while the heaters create the actual sauna effect.

Far Infrared Rays are invisible band of light warms objects without warming the air between the source and the object (known as conversion). This radiant heat can also be called Infrared Energy (IR). This band of light is not visible to human eyes but can be seen by special instruments that translate infrared into colors that are visible to our eyes. The best example of Infrared Energy is the sun (80% of the sun’s rays are infrared). Our atmosphere allows IR rays in the 7 to 14 micrometre range to safely reach the Earth’s surface. When warmed, the Earth radiates infrared rays with its peak output at 10 micrometres. The human body radiates infrared energy out through the skin at 3 to 50 micrometres, with most around 9.4 micrometres.) and to remove ice from the wings of aircraft (de-icing).


Communications
IR data transmission is also employed in short-range communication among computer peripherals and personal digital assistants. These devices usually conform to standards published by IrDA, the Infrared Data Association. Remote controls and IrDA devices use infrared light-emitting diodes (LEDs) to emit infrared radiation which is focused by a plastic lens into a narrow beam. The beam is modulated, i.e. switched on and off, to encode the data. The receiver uses a silicon photodiode to convert the infrared radiation to an electric current. It responds only to the rapidly pulsing signal created by the transmitter, and filters out slowly changing infrared radiation from ambient light.

Spectroscopy
Infrared radiation spectroscopy is the study of the composition of (usually) organic compounds, finding out a compound's structure and composition based on the percent transmittance of IR radiation through a sample. Different frequencies are absorbed by different stretches and bends in the molecular bonds occurring inside the sample. Carbon dioxide, for example, has an absorption band at 4.2µm.

History
The discovery of infrared radiation is commonly ascribed to William Herschel, the astronomer in the early 19th century. Herschel used a prism to refract light from a hot source and detected the infrared, beyond the red part of the spectrum, through an increase in the temperature recorded on a thermometer.

references
1.) Encyclopedia information about infrared
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition Copyright © 2003, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved. www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/

2.)Science information about infrared
The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin.

3.) WordNet information about infrared
WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University

4.) Military information about infrared
US Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Words, 2003.

5.) Wikipedia information about infrared
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Infrared