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Thread: Bakki shower thread continuation

  1. #1
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    Bakki shower thread continuation

    Hi guys

    There are three groups of people in regards to their views with bacteria house used in the shower method or submerge.

    1) users and believers
    2) curious koi keepers that are looking for a change in their system or bringing their koi keeping to a higher level
    3) absolute non believers (please do not bother posting your arguments on this thread please start your own thread).

    I have been dissapointed that the record high thread on koiphen was closed, there definitely was a group that was happy with it and started their little campaign in the only way they know (mockery). The moderators decided that I was not playing nice because I posted a defense for myself on one of the mockery threads which went against the moderators request to continue the conversation via email or pms. Subsequently they decided to band me because I tried to regain entry with an alternate nick without their express permission. To those that continue using koiphen I hope you can post a link to this thread on that site for those many viewers who want to learn more, hopefully you would not get moderated nor the thread removed but if so that means there was really no freedom to express opinions on that bored only when it agreed with the moderators. The owner of the site (stephen the koiphenator and other alias) also reads private messages when he feels like it, this I believe is highly illegal and criminal and also throw out all the rules of engagement of that forum.

    Some parts of this post was written originally for another thread on koiphen but the moderators probably decided I was too dangerous. Some information for eg a description of maurice's farm is more for the US viewers that probably do not know of maurice as well as we here do. So please be patient as you read on my fellow KB members.
    Many of the anti group used the fact that i am a momotaro agent to discredit the whole point of this thread. I can swear in gods name that I was not hiding this fact, previously i rarely used this forum. On the other forums i frequented like the malaysia koi forum, koi bito and koi chat I have my website at the bottom. It was silly for me to assume that most people that used this forum used other forum like koi bito and if they were interested in my background would have simply clicked on my web address. When JR did his research on my background he hinted that I was the momo agent and I answered with full dignity as i had nothing to hide.

    The point of my posting was to work out the experiences of bakki shower users all over the world, especially with regards to influx of water. Thus I had the posts that JR wrote on NI and my replies posted in koi bito, koi chat and here, I left out malaysia forum because year before that had been discussed in detail but there were really quite few BH users in malaysia but even so witht the lack of number of users of BH we had one extreme user that made up the lack of quantity with quality, the infamous Roger Moo. A man that has brought new aspirations to hobbyist that have small ponds, a relatively new keeper himself of about three years.

    The purpose of the threads were to look for experiences and there was no intention of talking about FIR and its effects just results. In the initial days there were a few hobbyist that had queries and doubts about bakki showers but this only inspired other users to share their opinions. The various threads on different boards provided the vehicle to address those queries, the biggest concern was water use and the effectiveness of the media in comparison with others such as lava rock. It was amazing that almost all doubters used SMG test, granted it was the only test done by a hobbyist and full credit goes to SMG as she took the effort to test the media using her own time and money before making any comments unlike most other skeptics.

    Many hobbyist added how happy they were with bacteria house but none commented that they needed to add excessive amounts of water compared to their previous setup. I shared my own experience and even Maurice Cox a well known close to famous hobbyist turn recent breeder in UK shared his experiences. Maurice is a very busy man with the beginning of his koi farm in UK operating almost solely by himself. He is a brilliant man that has collected many years of experiences and different ideas all over japan for his life long koi farm project. There is no hiding that Maurice loves momotaro and their ideas and farming techniques but he also has travelled all through out niigata and have close friends such as toshio sakai and other breeders where he has collected many fine oyagois. Many of you can find his site on www.koi-club.uk
    Maurice has four concrete ponds to overwinter his koi these run solely on bakki showers for biological filtration and he employs static K1 as a fine filtration. You might be wondering why he would use static K1 if he is such a believer of BH the answer is simple maurice is a perfectionist and chooses to maintain his water with super clarity even when keeping 2000 tosais in a small pond (exact gallonage i cant remember) to be able to this on bakki showers he would need a lot of media (this static K1 helps reduce cost) but more importantly it reduces water changes even more. Some may wonder why this is important but unfortunately for Maurice where his farm is the water is very hard, Maurice is a firm preacher of soft water according to Mike Snadens parameters. Thus he uses a large industrial RO unit to provide japan like water for his mudpond and concrete ponds. thus anything that would aid reduction of water would really help. Maurice is able to grow chagois between 45 to 50cm at 9 months of age, he is also able to raise gosanke at similar rates in small bakki shower ponds.

    Most of you probably dont know that maurice was the very first to use static K1 and that evolution aqua consulted with maurice to copy the static K1 concept and develop the easy that many of you use today. This is no bullshit. Maurice firmly believes that k1 is a great media for submerge but comes far behind BH in a shower form. He also knows how effective it is with fine filtration.

    Maurice has kept 2000 tosais and only added 130Uk gallons every two days recently due to a water problem but yet his tosais were still thriving in that immense stocking levels. Those levels would make any normal hobbyist cringe.

    To date the only person that has shared a BH pond with the recommended media volume to fish load to feeding ratio needs large amount of water is SMG. But besides the initial month I myself feel that the water she added in the subsequent months were albeit high (I believe it was due to the extreme stocking level) but not as much as I have seen some others do with conventional submerge systems. In fact the high end hobbyist like JR change more water than myself and most fully bakki shower pond users.

    The next big skepticsm was that lava rock was as good as BH, lava rock if i am correct is really not all that popular in UK, malaysia or other countries but is quite popular in US I think this is partly due to one man Roddy Conrad (the man who has had a pretty good holiday for the last two weeks with JR of his back) who is again a true lover of the hobby and shares his own testing for the benefits of others. There were a number of hobbyist that have used lava rock and then BH and commented on how bacteria house is much better even with the difference in cost.

    The overwhelming consensus is that BH in a shower is a superb filter, the one other major worry was brought out by JR in regards to the level of DOCs with normal hobbyist water regimes. Many have eagerly contributed to the fact that they have very little DOCs with their current water regimes which is far less then 10% golden rule that sceptics posted. JR has finally done his own testing. There was also concern that with normal hobbyist water changes that the system would not provide the growth that momotaro famously labelled for their 1500 ton pond. There has been a ton of hobbyist that have shown growth rates equal to or greater than Japan mud ponds with average and small sized ponds.

    On koichat i brought up the subject of FIR, was immediately blasted by luke Frisbee and Valr on how that was a host of bullshit and that i was trying to market sanke oil. Truth of the matter is that yes momotaro has advertise FIR as a key element of the media but every dealer pretty much doesn understand FIR and never had the background knowledge of physics. The media was sold based on results. I myself knew little of it and the effects of FIR and thus asked junglegeorge to please share his understanding of principles. Thus was later to be accused as a marketing conspiracy setup by me and junglegeorge by luke and Valr. I had decided to endure the personal attacks as i was very interested on what JG had to share and started doing my own research as well. As i did my research i wanted to share with others what i had learnt again this was just seen as a selling point and marketing hype by the two individuals.

    After reading links posted by JG and doing more research on FIR I understood why the FIR had an effect which placed this media very different to any other filtration media for a koi pond. This was what i was trying to show as the difference between lava rock and BH adn thus the beginning of an even greater debate here on koiphen. The debate on koichat had ended and low and behold one of the same characters Valr emerged to try and educate the rest. As my knowledge of FIR had only just begun JG joined the debate. I endured many attacks from the anti BH people only to try and show what i have recently came to understand.

    Much of that thread had some very good information, information that was virgin learning for myself and alot of others. Besides taking opposite sides to JR, JR posted some very excellent pond biology and microbiology, many of us learnt a lot including myself. Unfortunately the thread led me to take my personal opinion of JR which i expressed very clearly (and so did he).

    The anti BH group had decided to mock the work that many of us contributed on the other thread. They have even gone to the point that we have driven them away and now they make jokes in revenge. Thus I have started this thread for the 1st two group of people since the third group has accused of driving them away then there is no need for them to read and post this thread. I will not believe that 18000 views or even half were made up by the anti group. i have had many pms about those that have learnt alot and want to continue to learn.

    In this thread i hope to slowly go throught the other koiphen thread and repost information that I have found and will continue to find. I will repost JGs links as well. I hope that those that shared, sundan, poey, charlie, JG will share their pond pictures and pond experiences as well so that other BH users have an opportunity to talk about their ponds as well. This will also help those of group two.

    So let the fun begin again this time, there will be no personal attacks needed, no irrelevant posts, no exhibition of arrogance and anger nor bullying and group scare tactics, no slendering of other professionals. This was the main reason the other thread was closed. Valr had read and inerpreted that JG was threatening him physically whilst JG was only referring to Valr's professional and personal image. The other anti users like stephen have continued access to the internet so much so he started two threads worth of jokes so it isn about giving others a chance to rebut. It was dissapointing that the moderators allowed other professional and ethical people to be attacked unreasonably (and this was in their rules that this was not tolerated) but with one misinterpretation of a post close an informative thread. This has only shown me that there was fear of the truth and fear of old principles being changed and of people's egos and status suffering :yes: . Thus this thread is about the sharing of experiences and science :yes: .

    I will post for the record I dont care how much more Carl and other dealers sell BH in US or any other country.

    To junglegeorge, sundan, kingkong, hanyakoi, rogermoo, charlie, MikeM, poey thank you so much for posting and putting up with those people.

    Thanks for participating on this thread

    Please feel free to post your bakki shower pond pics, your maintenance regime, fish growth rates etc anything to do with your experience as a bakki shower user in regards to bacteria house or bakki showers. Whether its the structure the science of FIR etc

    TEWA
    There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
    http://www.tewakoi.com

  2. #2
    Sansai sundan's Avatar
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    Thanks Tewa, your info is always intense.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bakki shower thread continuation-feeder4.jpg   Bakki shower thread continuation-stitched_016.jpg   Bakki shower thread continuation-stitched_010.jpg   Bakki shower thread continuation-c829.jpg  

  3. #3
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Tewa,

    I watched the post on the other board, and the debate was absoulute BS! I quit posting on the other board a few months back when another idiotic debate took place, I don't care to be involved with people that belive they are more knowledgable about any given subject to try to put other people down. I really had a hard time not posting to support you and saying what was on my mind, but it wouldn't have mattered anyways. The way I feel is, if BH works as a effective media, and you have the $$$ to purchase it, then use it! I am using it submerged in my filter and skimmer, but just put it in a few weeks ago, so it will be a while before I see any good or bad results, but I think it will do good for what I am using it for.

    The mudslinging that went on during that debate was unbelievable!

    So the FIR is a weird sales pitch, the bottom line is BH doesn't degrade, where Lava Rock does, so if someone wants to invest their $$$ in BH to have a product that will last a lot longer than Lava Rock, that's each of our own choices. I'd rather buy something that last longer, and if you think about it if Lava Rock degrades over time, the surface area will always be dynamic, where as BH is supposed to last forever, no Lava Rock sand in the bottom of the pond from degradation, I'll stick with BH!





    DAMN you for trying to get free advertiving for a product you sell! Ummm, by the way how much is shipping from Australia to the US for BH?
    Like you are pushing your product when theres already a dealer in the US, and most of the members over there are US based????? What BS!!!!!!!!!
    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed” Adolf Hitler


    Chris~

  4. #4
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Talking

    What a wild ride it was. I logged a lot of time in reading and self-educating myself on that one. Teewaa, can i get some credits on my continued education requirements this year for the State of Florida?

  5. #5
    Tategoi Maurice's Avatar
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    Stick with it Tewa, I'll post a few photos next week.

    These are will be new photos taken to show how my koi are at this moment.

    Bakki showers, with Bacteria House media, the best filter syatem I've ever used.

    Maurice.

  6. #6
    Sansai
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    For those of you giving this guy your unfounded support, you might want to know that a big reason he was banned was for insulting me by insinuating that instead of a scientist, I'm a janitor, and insulting the owner of the site, saying the only reason his water looked clear is because his pond was only a foot deep. The other person banned was done so because of making personal threats against me. I'm not going to argue the science here, because I've given up on educating those who wish to believe whatever they want.

    Also, nowhere have I ever said BHM in a Bakki Shower doesn't work. From the great number of people who support it, I would say it definitely DOES work. But, FIR is BS.

    I admit I was guilty of plenty of personal attacks in that thread, but tewa is acting like an innocent victim and he is extremely far from it... he made plenty more personal attacks than I did.

    Edit: Tewa, you could have easily reposted this thread as a simple discussion of the media, saying you were unhappy with what happened in another forum. You could have left out the details, and tried to start it on a positive note without dredging up all the bad crap that happened in the other forum. In fact, if you had done that, I would have ignored this thread as you requested and let you have your discussion without ever chiming in with my two cents.

    By the way, I think it says a lot about your character that you specifically asked only people who agree with you to post to the thread. Kind of ironic when you are complaining about being censored on the other board.

  7. #7
    Sansai
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    Woody, the statement about the degrading is the BEST argument I've ever seen to use BHM over lava rock. I HATE the lava rock grit that collects in the bottom of my trickle tower. If more supporters of the media were to use nice rational arguments like this instead of resulting to the FIR pseudoscience, a lot of us would take them more seriously!

  8. #8
    Sansai tewa's Avatar
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    For those of you giving this guy your unfounded support, you might want to know that a big reason he was banned was for insulting me by insinuating that instead of a scientist, I'm a janitor, and insulting the owner of the site, saying the only reason his water looked clear is because his pond was only a foot deep.

    This is the only reply i will write for you Valr i will be ignoring all the others as this thread is not about argument, you can start your own thread please.

    Never called you a janitor mate read carefully.

    Most of the photos the owner posteed were of 1 foot deep and he made fun of advertisements and bacteria house didn say his pond was 1 foot deep but he did take most of his photos at 1 foot. I was banned for the above reasons and even had the administrator gingerich dale email me telling me that koiphen is not a public forum, stephen the owner's rules goes and that him reading pms was not a illegal since he owned the server and program


    The other person banned was done so because of making personal threats against me.

    You misinterpreted junglegeorge post he was offering his advise and point of view that if you kept doing what you were doing one of these days you will be hurting your own credibility.

    I admit I was guilty of plenty of personal attacks in that thread, but tewa is acting like an innocent victim and he is extremely far from it... he made plenty more personal attacks than I did.

    Lets see how many times did i tell you to cool of to stop insulting people like maeda and the various momotaro agents and dealers that you didn know. You called people jackass called me and maeda a liar, which was against the rules of engagement but they didn moderate you as you were on their side. Many people who have followed the thread would know i refrained from attacking and laughed off all the personal attacks unlike you. When others mocked me and made jokes I question their arguments thats all. Never called anyone a liar, jackass or dumbass like you did. The one person i did call arrogant was JR and thats becaused he started calling me arrogant first and tried to belittle maeda and myself as he is a more experienced koi keeper.

    Edit: Tewa, you could have easily reposted this thread as a simple discussion of the media, saying you were unhappy with what happened in another forum. You could have left out the details, and tried to start it on a positive note without dredging up all the bad crap that happened in the other forum. In fact, if you had done that, I would have ignored this thread as you requested and let you have your discussion without ever chiming in with my two cents.

    people need to know why i didn continue to post there. The truth should be out.

    By the way, I think it says a lot about your character that you specifically asked only people who agree with you to post to the thread. Kind of ironic when you are complaining about being censored on the other board.

    Had people like you argued with proper science and decent arguments then that thread wouldn have turned so bad. Thus to avoid all personal attacks I just ask people to post their experiences coupled with what positive information they have found. Those that wish to argue with their science can do so on another thread that way this would avoid anyone directing any personal attacks against each other and turning the thread to the way it was there.

    TEWA

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Tewa, KingKong, Valarc: If you are going to continue the discussion on this board, please remember that the tone of the postings should be in keeping with the tone of this board. I think too many participants in the Koiphen thread got overly emotional and perhaps a bit frazzled? ....I think pretty much all that could be said about Bacteria House media and far infra-red rays was said (often thrice), but I would certainly enjoy learning of anything new.

    I think a sad point in focusing on the questionable science of FIR is that the benefits of a shower filter (Bakki or otherwise) has gotten lost in the debate. I personally have no doubt that milk crates of lava rock hung over a pond will produce the same or similar results. However, I like the notion of stainless steel trays that can be placed away from the pond, are made to control the flow, will withstand exposure to sun and elements far longer than plastic crates, and are structurally sound. So, I got the Bakki Shower when building my new pond. The person with a small budget can find ways to provide for their koi, although the DIY showers may not be pretty. The person with a larger budget can go for a higher quality product that is more aesthetically pleasing. DickB makes the point elsewhere of the importance of understanding the principles involved in water filtration. Understanding the principles allows the koikeeper to provide the system that benefits the koi consistent with their budget.

    As for the media, ceramic biomedia has been around a long time used in aquaria. It has proved to be an excellent media as long as the fine pores do not become clogged. The openness of the Bacteria House media seems to address that problem, and it has the weight to be suitable in a shower system. It is an expensive media. The shipping cost from Japan to a U.S. distributor and then to the customer would pay for a great deal of lava rock. It does seem to be a high quality product for a particularized use. On a short term basis, SMG's experiment showed no significant difference in performance. On my new pond, the combination of filtration used, including the BS/BH combination, produced no measurable ammonia, nitrite or nitrate for nearly 6 weeks. There was never a new pond syndrome and the water has been excellent. Many who post on this board have experienced excellent results using solely the Bakki/BH system. So, it seems to me that the system produces excellent results. I think we will need a couple of more years of widespread use before we can reach conclusions as to whether Bacteria House is sufficiently better compared to lava rock to justify the price. However, I do not know anyone using the Bakki/BH product who has not experienced improved water. I have no doubt that the same results can be achieved less expensively by koikeepers who understand the principles involved.

    However, Tewa, all of the good done by these products gets lost when the discussion turns to FIR. The more the discussion focuses on FIR, credibility is lost on the most important aspect of these products: real people have had excellent results using them. Please keep that in mind.

  10. #10
    Sansai
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    I'm in the process of spending what to me is a hell of a lot of money on a new pond with shower systems for filtration, I'll be using bakki house media and that is because I have seen the results and I'm impressed, not because of the sales literature claiming FIR activity but INSPITE of the sales literature claiming FIR activity. That claim is an insult to peoples inteligence.

    Does bakki house media emit FIR? Yes it does

    Does the keyboard I'm typing on emit FIR? Yes it does

    Does your mouse in your hand emit FIR? Yes it does

    Does your desk emit FIR? Yes it does

    Does lava rock emit FIR? Yes it does

    For those with no scientific background, FIR (far infra red) is heat, yes heat. Every object on the planet that is warmer than 0 Degrees Kelvin emits FIR or heat!! It's that simple.

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