Would nishikigoi had developed outside of Japan?

[MikeM]

Interesting comparison between the european doitsu food fish and nishikigoi. I think both were the subject of purposeful crossings, but for very different purposes. The Japanese bred for the beauty and art they created in an animal intended to be eaten. Europeans focused on the practical goal of maximizing the food source. I'm not sure what it tells us about underlying cultural values, but there is something in the fact that when doitsu arrived in Japan the scalation became recognized as an artistic element (even if not as artistic as gosanke ... :wink: ), while in Europe the nishikigoi became pets. I do not believe the Japanese would wince at the idea of somebody eating nishikigoi (unless very valuable ones), but Euro-American sensibilities would be offended. We do not eat pet breeds. So, it is not a matter of one being more practical and the other more sensitive. Just different, and seeing the world differently. But, valuing the beauty of nishikigoi similarly. ...Van Gogh's Sunflowers factor in this somewhere.

[James P]

Morning Mike, I'm not sure of the time period you are talking about when referring to doitsu vs wagoi and European vs Japanese view of carp as pets or meals?
Doitsu fish , by definition, are European food fish that offer the advantage of having no scales in the food prep phase. They were brought to Japan as an advancement in food carp production.
Two points-
I ALWAYS feel like I haven't conveyed the point well when I mention isolated gene pools!
Once man has caught a group of wild carp and isolated them in an open system along side a river, over several generations he has created a unique gene pool. Over a few hundred years- A VERY UNIQUE gene pool.
When the food carp then escapes back into the river system due to flooding, purposeful release etc. , You have a breeder that is genetically very different from the average carp in that surrounding water. The FERAL carp is a huge wild card in nishikigoi production. The definition being, a once domestic food fish that has rejoined the wild gene pool to add certain characteristics to that gene pool that are unique to that fish’s isolated clan.

So the Japanese have natural mutations of feral carp, some wild carp from Asia, German scaled food fish and other isolated gene pools from Europe. This is not just conjecture. If you look at koi today at koi shows you can see several body types. There are in fact the different and very distinct body types that rise from the genetics of these early gene pools.
JR

[nihonjin]

COLOR CARP from CHINA came to JAPAN centuries ago mainly as FOOD/ and partly as ORNAMENTAL.. Then JAPANESE in Niigata in/cross-bred them for Ornamental/Food/Economic reasons and had turned them into KOI (what we see today)... Back then Niigata was isolated from the rest of JAPAN due to Mountainous road and lack of Transportations... Rice was abundant and couldn't sell because most regions in Japan has their own rice field. So KOI as FOOD if couldn't be sold as Ornament was economically sound... It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. As JAPAN economy got better, more garden being build, so demand for beautiful KOI also rise... So the competition for breeding QUALITY, BEAUTIFUL KOI was on... And that's when KOI BLOODLINE/PEDEGREE started.. YAGOZEN, TOMOIN, CHOSUKE, SADAZO, KICHINAI, TORAZO, JINBEI, MATSUNOSUKE, KOBAYASHI.. They all were VERY VERY distinctive.. and from all those lines we have the late SENSUKE, DIANICHI, SAKAI, OGAWA and then in between we have TAKEDA, MOMOTARO, and many countless others... as each new generation of breeder come, there would be a new vision of new line base on products from previous generation.

[MikeM]

No disagreement, JR. I was distinguishing between western sensibilities regarding food carp vs koi. It is a peculiarity western society seems to have to a greater degree than others.

On body shape: the variability is one of the fascinations of koi, I think. It makes the challenge of finding the ideal shape per Japanese standards more of a challenge for the guys doing the culling, and for those doing the buying. There is a curious point though to how I personally react to body shapes. The "torpedo" ideal seems to my eye to fit perfectly kohaku and sanke, and to be pleasing with any variety. But, for some reason, I find I have a personal preference for the "wide-in-the-chest" form seen on older lines of showa. There is a wildness to it that seems to fit showa better. There was a knock-out showa at the AFKAPS show that deserved every recognition it received. But, I really I did not get the feeling that it was "showa", if you know what I mean. It was more a sanke dressed to look like a showa. (Don't get me wrong. I certainly did not disagree with the benching decision nor the judgment of the judges, nor would I turn down a place in pond for such a fish! But, the place it took in my pond would not be one reserved in my mind for a "showa". ) I'm too much a novice to have my thoughts on such a subject given any weight. Still, I know what I like, and I think slight variations (I'm not talking about the German pancake shape!) from the theoretical ideal better fit the "art" of certain varieties. .....The ogon group is another that I like to see broader in the chest. Somehow, the broader chest gives a sense of strength rather than grace. Some varieties to my eye should be graceful. Others should be strong. ... love the size of chagoi, but seems they are neither graceful nor strong. ...... Well, I've rambled way off-topic! Enjoy the day.

[James P]

Incorrect! there are four sub-races of common carp. The sub race imported as local species by the chinese and koreans would be carpio haematopterus. It is possible that this species as a feral form in Japan was used but the sub-race cyprinus carpio carpio of the Eurasian region of the black sea is THE foundation stock.
Because carp were moved by man, traded by man , isolated by man and released back in the wild by man- we have played a huge part in spreading common carp in different gene pools to areas outside its natural distribution.
In fact, there is not much reference of colored carp in Japan before 1760. The Dutch already had a colony in Nagasaki in the 1800s. And records show that the common carp they brought later became 'common' in adjacant waters to the settlement. European feral carp. This NOW wild carp, with golden scales ( Classic European wild carp) is the direct breeding stock for the golden ogon- later to evolve into the yamabuki ogon! All from the Nagasaki foundation stock.
we also know that doitsu were crossed with kohaku in 1818. And that doitsu is a huge contributor to many modern forms.
More specifically, the production of modern Nishikigoi in Niigata can really only be established back as far as 220 years ago max. As some suggest it was the unique environment that contributed the number of color mutations as much as the unique gene pool I described. The changes in melatonin due to darkness ( snow ) is theorized to be a major environmental factor.
So the Chinese contribution is there as one component ( active trade in the southern most part of Japan for many centuries- contributing to the general gene pool) . But the direct link of color mutations from China ( removing the confusion surrounding goldfish production) to the foundation stock in Niigata just doesn’t hold water. JR.

[luke frisbee]

Nihonjin,
Come here and give me a kiss.
Succinct and seems credible. The Steak was found in China and the sizzle added in Japan.

[James P]

Ahh Luke always there to stir the pot! I could set my watch by it!

Seriously, very scholarly types have done some amazing research on this. Both in Japan and America. A few bright Ichthyological bulbs in Europe and Canada have done the same. The direct transfer of Chinese mutations in trade with the people of Niigata is zero. The trade point of entry for all of Japan was the in Kyushu area of Japan. The leaders of this region dominated the Okinawa Islands for many years. This represented its own ‘kingdom’ when it came to controlling Chinese and Korean imports. What is now the Niigata region was controlled by the shogun and warlord lords of the rest of Japan. So again the idea that Chinese exports were flowing into Niigata from the coast would be to say that foreigners were freely roaming in the Northern Islands- NO way NO how! Killed on sight! It was not until the era of that silly Tom Cruise movie “ The Last Samurai” that the Japanese government finally broke the back of the feudal kingdoms and clan control. But that was 1877 and ties in with the German influence in Japan including military and commercial influences ( IE Doitsu food carp as mentioned above). And to put this into perspective, Tomoemon and Yagozen lines appear in 1915-1917.
Take a minute and study this lineage chart and appreciate what modern nishikigoi is. ( actually I tried a dozen times to get the chart small enough to fit on koi-bito but no luck - I'll post it on NI so you can see what I mean) JR

[luke frisbee]

JR,
Let me stir the pot a little more. I can remember back...Waaaaay back before Tom Cruise. I remember seeing John Wayne ( The Beauty and the Barbarian , or some such title).
So what you got to say now....I got cinematic proof that long before TC the Americans were running around Japan.
John Wayne had 'em eating out of his hand when he introduced them to the chair.

[James P]

Luke, Admiral Perry was a gun boat diplomist of the nineth century. He landed in 1853 and advise the royal court of Japan that he would be visiting in the AM with 300 well armed marines/sailors. The Japanese court saw the power and made a lunch date! But like a localized infection it hit hard and left!
The chinese trade however was going on in a very organized fashion since 1600. And if we are quoting movies- "Shogun" the mini-series, protrays the era of Dutch, Portuguese, German and finally, English influences in trade and exploration - that was 1600- 1800's.
The roll of Tom Cruise would have been better played by a German as that who was training the Imperial Japanese army at that point in time! The Prussians were the folks to be training a professional army at the time. Not the Yanks!
The actual character that was the right hand of the last samurai and was present when he did himself in after being morally wounded was another Japanese Samurai named - Beppu Shinske, Saigo Takamori's second. Tom Cruise actually wasn't there! Nor was any American!

JR

[James P]

OOOpppss , that's ninetieth century for Admiral Perry , not nineth! But to get back on topic--

I posted the geneology chart on NI to show that modern Nishikigoi is probably only 200 years old, give or take. That is, ALL the modern forms of Nishikigoi were created from crosses of varieties during a relative brief period of time , 'almost' exclusively in the Niigata region.
But the raw foundation stock, is a large part of the secret of their success. And these were the result of crosses maybe as far back as 2000 years. Natural mutations of common carp, the mixing of isolated gene pools of food fish and the crossing of subraces made for a powerful gene pool with loads of possibilities.
Its not unlike Bonsai. You can make a bonsai looking tree from raw nursery stock by simple pruning or you can find a thirty year old wild pine that has had nature and circumstances create a natural bonsai style to the tree. You then prune it and you have something very special.

The foundation stock of Japan had a great potential. And the dark winters helped in several ways- genetically to the fish and intellecturally to the man/dreamer. Good stuff. JR