Food Glorious something or …..

[Mike Snaden]

Interesting thread. I personally feel that most of the Japanese manufactured foods offer a pretty ballanced diet nowadays. Many people mix different brands, in the hope that where one food may lack a certain nutritional element, another will make up for it... not a bad move. However, the only way of knowing whether your feeding has been good, is to raise a group of small Koi to a large size, and finish the fish, after a number of years. The long term result will tell you whether you 'did good' or not.

Doug... as far as the last 10 All Japan Grand champs are concerned, 7 of these winners were raised by Momotaro, most of them from Tosai, or Nisai. Rather than me telling you how they have achieved this, why don't you take a trip there one day, and find out for yourself? You'll find that there's a lot more to it, than just good feeding.

Mike.

[Vogata]

Dear SMG like the idea, but cant really grasp why they should be so clean. Her in Norway many of your gender is hunting man gown bacteria just to compensate this funny way of living (the dairy are quit happy about this)
Nice to hear from you again but cant forgive the board for denying us the wet t-shirt.


Mike

When talking about produced foods we have the opposite approach. Must bee the engineer among us rubbing off on the rest. It’s just the basis rule – survival of the fittest. We really don’t believe that cars have been made with more lasting and functional parts either. (At least since Henry left his line)

To believe that companies with good revenue are producing the best they can or are economical inhibited is taking things a bit far.
Have heard the most about when customer is ………. and so forth. The simple fact is that I don’t know anybody ever contradiction what we call “cost efficiency point” it’s the place where the difference in producing/shipping/handling and accepted price out is the highest.
The simple fact is that food is hard kept and shipping in too Norway (excluding air freight) is almost to long. For food 3 months is a really long time if you don’t adjust for it in production. When we are at the pellets side we have not found any way around losing enormously when extending time the food is usable.

In our early years we where quit obsess with this and made use of the industrial research environment we have her (Norway is a big exporter off salmon). We went through almost every known big brad (no on mention is not by accident since this is not the point). All was from feeding point acceptable, when asking about all the nice and expensive ingredients (vitamins and mix amino acid …….) they didn’t find it to be sufficient or in a state where it would make any difference. In fact small brand seamed to have nicer “stuff in” or where fresher it seamed.
Disillusioned and weary we left the track and stated looking for a new road.

We do use pellet but not for the same reason as you describe. We are sorry, but have to blame it on the fact that we prioritise wrong. To our defence we must inform that we do our best too supply fresh feed to our Nishikigoi as often as possible.

[B.Scott]

Mike,
Frankly the only feed that has ever really appealed to me is the Koi Lord you used to sell. I have serious misgivings about almost all the rest if for no othre fact than it's all stuffed full of wheat flour to assist production ease, and not as a contribution to fish nutrition as they would have you think. Unfortunately you no longer import the product. Too bad. I would be temped to buy anything similar but in the meantime I'll stick to making my own.
B.Scott

[Mike Snaden]

Aha Scott!

Ever wondered why I now import Momotaro food, and didn't import anything else in the interim??? :wink: Yep, you've guessed it... it's seaweed bound!!! It also has more goodies in it than the Koi Lord did. Unfortunately, it's also more expensive :cry:
I only feed this to my best Tosai (the ones I'm growing), as these Koi are the hardest to improve, and easiest to ruin. I feed Medicarp and Nobori to the other three ponds.

Going back to the Momotaro food, it was so damn hard to get it to clear customs last year (first shipment), that Mr Maeda told me that I could have it made over here. Trouble is, it was so damn expensive to get it made, as it was such a complicated recipe, that I have continued importing it.

Suffice to say, that the price is so high, that not that many people feed it in the UK. It does has it's avid fans though. Craig A, that posts here uses it. Prior to me importing it, he was buying it direct from Momotaro, and having them send it by air, one box (4 x 2kg bags) at a time, and it was costing him £190! I reckon that he spent most of his wages on food... seriously!

Mike.

[tewa]

Hey Mike

i know exactly what you mean about how hard it is to get the food through customs. I had a hell of a time as well, the amount of running around almost makes you wanna give up many a time, but i am very happy now that it is all sorted out, likewise not many people have tried the all season koi food here in Australia namely due tot he price, a lot of people here aren't very educated about how important the quality of the food is. Then again we don't have imported kois here and most people use hard water anyway. i have found the all season food to be great, and it smells good too.

Vogata
Yes it is true that by the time a lot of food arrive from Japan to long distance places they have already degraded some what, a read of koi bito's articles will shick many people. That is why both me and mike so strongly support momotaro food, not only are they fed to all japan grand champions, they are packaged in nitrogen and vacuum sealed to seal int he freshness. I have heard from pellet manufacturers that food prepared this way stay as fresh as the day they are made for 12 to 18 months. Plus momotaro only makes food onn a monthly basis so it is always fresh.

Doug

I would be very interested in what you feed your kois? Since you seem to have quite a strong opinion of two of the best breeders in Japan. That have raised and bred the last 10 all Japan winners between them.


tewa

[bekko]

This has very marginal relevance to the discussion but...

I only buy Nelson's Silver Cup floating trout food for adults and salmon starter for fry/juveniles. Its cheap, relatively fresh, and locally available. Of course, its much to rich for adult koi and would cause them to put on a lot of visceral fat, ruin their conformation, and cause a early death from fatty liver syndrome. However, it works for me because I supplement with a LOT of fresh seaweed - primarily Ulva sp. and Enteromorpha sp. They eat 8-10 liters of soggy seaweed for every liter of dry feed which is probably 2:1 or so on a dry weight basis.

The seaweed comes out of my saltwater reef fish pond. In fact, pulling seaweed out for the koi is the primary way of exporting nutrients and maintaining oligotrophic conditions in the reef fish pond. I used to put it in the compost heap but found that it may be more useful as koi food.

The seaweed is thrown in the koi pond with the salts, epiphytes, attached amphipods, and other hitch-hikers intact. The adult koi get fed once each day with the floating seaweed and pellets tossed into a feeding ring. The ratio of seaweed to pellets was crudely derived over time by observing which they would finish off first. If they finished off the pellets before the seaweed, I would increase the amount of pellets slightly the next day, and vice-versa. My fish are not eagar eaters and usually take a couple of hours to finish off the day's ration. Yeah, I know the 5-10 minute rule, but sometimes they don't even come to look at it for a half-hour. This group of "adults" (some are actually nisai) includes 15 fish, 16-26 inches (20-65 cm) in 22,000 gallons (83 mt). About 100% water exchange per week, but with high ambient levels of kh and TDS.

For large fry and juveniles, I feed an appropriate size of salmon starter. This stuff is really rich. I have tried supplementing the formulated ration with vegetative matter, including seaweed in various types of presentations. The small fish won't touch the veggies. I can get them to start nibbling on it when they reach about 8 inches (20 cm). My intuition is that they need the rich diet to support the proportionalely faster growth when young.

I suspect that fish have some sense of what they need to eat. Given a diversity of foods and choices, I suspect they will formulate an appropriate and "healthy" diet for themselves. Of course, if the stocking density is pushed to the limit you cannot afford to provide choices and must rely on a ration with a proven track record.

I am thick-skinned and would appreciate your criticisms. However, I will be loath to change because this seems to work. There are a lot of things about my koi ponds I would like to improve, but this feeding regime is not presently one of them.

Steve Hopkins

[MikeM]

Others more knowledgeable on the nutrient content/metabolic process etc can explain it better than I. The pellets you are feeding are designed to get quick growth in young fish without regard to the long term health consequences. In high temperature areas, perhaps the pellets are O.K. for fish under 2 years of age when supplemented with the seaweed, but I'd be leery of it even in such high growth situation. That type pellet is cheap, but that's about all it has going for it. If price is the determinative factor for you, then there is one pellet available from Aquatic EcoSystems that I'd suggest you consider instead ... Azoo brand pellets from Taiwan. If acquired on sale, you get so much that you better have refrigerated/freezer storage or it will be degraded before you use it all. On some bags the ingredients are only in Chinese, but sometimes also in English.

As for feeding seaweeds ... if they eat it, sounds good to me. If you are going to stick with food fish pellets, then I'd suggest you increase the vegetable variety & content of the diet.

[B.Scott]

Now that is interesting Mike. Now why couldn't you have mentioned that during the BKKS? I'll be getting a box or two during the next trip I make to the UK. Tell me, does it have the same ratio of sinking/ floating pellets like Koi Lord did? I would be greatfull if you would email me the nutitional breakdown of Momontaro's white feed!
B.Scott