'Monster kohaku'

[soelistyo]

well saratogatan - and i'm probably spoiling it by actually saying it - you can't go looking for inner peace in Zen, or the path of nature, etc.
just do what you got to do. if koi keeping demands that you clean the filter, maintain the water, grow the fish, cure disease, then you do those without reservation. And when it comes time for you to lie down beside your pond and take a rest and enjoy your koi, don't mistake that for the inner peace period.

it's just something you do.

what your mother in law said.
when you raise a koi, you raise a koi.
when you appreciate its life, you appreciate its life.

But bring peace into your life? That's down to you, not the fish.


i'll get my coat now.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan aq, talking about conditioning a koi, I don't think we are doing what the zen aspect of koi demands. In zen, there is no such thing as changing the nature. In zen, one find the inner wisdom that enventually opens the path to see the nature and jive with it, Endless peace and enlightenment will make one sees the ultimate beauty in all life, including the ulgiest koi you can find. I don't see how i can do that with a bottle of formalin in my hand. I look back my last 18month in this hobby, I can only classify myself as an idiot. Inner peace were no where to be found, but constant nutty chase after water quality, desease, infestion, beni depth, emerging sumi, and many nutty terms/thing/goal. I really appreciate what my mother inlaw told me: "raise a koi, appreaciate its life, and the peace it brings upon your life". I am extremely happy that my parent were no koi breeders, they might have culled me ages ago. stan

Too spiritual for me...Anyways, no mother in-law is going to tell me what to do, I don't thing my mother in-law will ever know as much as me when it comes to koi...That's for damn sure!!! HAHAHAHA. Getting back to the topic..I have travelled all around San Jose looking at peoples ponds and I have to say I am pretty impressed with all the landscaping and junk like that, yeah ying and yang stuff...But, I fail to find inner peace when people's fish look horrible. Well maybe I am looking at the show side of the hobby...I think and this my opinion, if you spend X amount of money on fish you should take this hobby alittle more serious. But then again I am not retired, not a dot-conner and not a Walton...

[Pacificcoastkoi]

I would agree with aquatori(hope I spelled it right) on this. While fast growing koi are nice it is nothing without quality.Also I would rather have a koi that takes five to six years to reach the jumbo sizes and then stays at a high quality for another five years.In my opinoin you are not talking Jumbo until you reach the lengths of 85cm.+ So 60cm.at 18 mos. is still not jumbo . When the koi reach 85cm. with excellent conformation and great color then you can call it jumbo.

[swordfish]

As the paces of our daily life quicken & we get more impatient wanting to see results in a short time frame so koi breeders have developed jumbo tosai to meet our expectations. I myself own 4 jumbo tosai beside the 7 normal tosai,2 from momotaro & the other 2 from Dainichi. Their grow rate is almost 3X compare to the other 7. Some local serious hobbyist from my koi club have visited my pond & they said my koi comformation,tsuya,teri,fukurin,thickness of the colors,the way they swim etc.is fine. The shits is ok too. I'm wondering since the external parts of the koi is ok what about the internal organs? These jumbo tosai eat so much will they be 'choke' to dead 1 fine day by their building up of fat in their organs like liver?
I'm giving my koi sweet potatoes or pumpkin for extra vitamin supplement & also according to Daisuke San can enchance the internal organs. I'm using tofu for calcium as I find that tofu have high calcium contents. These I give every alternate day beside their daily Momotaro food mix with Hikari excel.
Any guys that have kept jumbo tosai for longer period of time care to share their experiences?

SF

[aquitori]

I think it is best said that Jumbo Tosai will eventually be caught up by their smaller siblings sooner or later. But what is the crazy thing about buying Jumbo Tosai that your paying for a faster earlier growth that will slow down once the koi reaches a certain size. I mean I am not knockin the whole Jumbo thing, it's just that when a dealer says that this x amount for Jumbo Tosai compared to this x amount for Tosai, thou smaller from the same breeder. I think I would go with the smaller siblings and maybe have enough to buy a couple compared to the price of one Jumbo Tosai. With the koi's energy focus on growing when will the hobbyist step in and start to control the growth and start to control the quality of the koi. Honestly, it's one thing to have Jumbo Koi, but if the quality ain't there I don't know how a true koi hobbyist could not take overall quality to size.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by swordfish As the paces of our daily life quicken & we get more impatient wanting to see results in a short time frame so koi breeders have developed jumbo tosai to meet our expectations. I myself own 4 jumbo tosai beside the 7 normal tosai,2 from momotaro & the other 2 from Dainichi. Their grow rate is almost 3X compare to the other 7. Some local serious hobbyist from my koi club have visited my pond & they said my koi comformation,tsuya,teri,fukurin,thickness of the colors,the way they swim etc.is fine. The shits is ok too. I'm wondering since the external parts of the koi is ok what about the internal organs? These jumbo tosai eat so much will they be 'choke' to dead 1 fine day by their building up of fat in their organs like liver? I'm giving my koi sweet potatoes or pumpkin for extra vitamin supplement & also according to Daisuke San can enchance the internal organs. I'm using tofu for calcium as I find that tofu have high calcium contents. These I give every alternate day beside their daily Momotaro food mix with Hikari excel. Any guys that have kept jumbo tosai for longer period of time care to share their experiences? SF

As far as the feeding goes at Momotaro they do feed tofu and sweet potatoes or "whatever is in season" as Daisuke mentioned too. I have my own mix of paste food that works well with my koi that leaves the koi growing while controlling the quality. As for me, I stay away from High Spriulina based koi food. Kind of afraid of my koi getting Hikkui. 2 months before the show Hikari Excel is great, but year round no good in my opinion.

[dtbh]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori As far as the feeding goes at Momotaro they do feed tofu and sweet potatoes or "whatever is in season" as Daisuke mentioned too. I have my own mix of paste food that works well with my koi that leaves the koi growing while controlling the quality. As for me, I stay away from High Spriulina based koi food. Kind of afraid of my koi getting Hikkui. 2 months before the show Hikari Excel is great, but year round no good in my opinion.

Hi aquitori

This is the first time I am reading it, but do spirulina-based food actually cause hikkui? I have asked this cos I have been using only spirulina-based food for years now. Hikkui, touch wood, none yet.

As regards this "jumbo" thingy, to me it is a fad. At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves why we have gone into this hobby. If it makes one happy by all means go for it. We are always learning and those who have purchased "jumbo" tosais probably would like to know what will happen to them in a few years. Anyway lets not kid ourselves; many of us do not have the luxury of space to grow jumbos (kois>80cm) and I note that the word "jumbo" has been misused in that sense.

I personally like to enjoy my koi esp being able to feed them frequently and to maintain, if not, improve their quality. Anything else esp growth-wise is a bonus indeed.

Cheers,

Teh

[kiky]

Oops I guess I am quite out dated. So 60 cm in 30 months is very ordinary indeed. Actually I have other kois with comparable growth. but they were from better breeders: Momotaro, Sakai, Dainichi, Hoshikin and Omosako - unlike this 'monster' with unknown origin!

Brian,
no other detail whatsoever. Only a normal looking kohaku with 'monster embellishment attached, that's all.

Soelistyo,
no, the dealer did not tell me the breeder. Apparently he was protecting his source; or maybe he has other reasons.

[swordfish]

Hi Teh, my understanding of "jumbo tosai" is different from yours. To me jumbo tosai simply mean that these koi are larger than their fellow brothers & sisters. They are able to grow faster in short time-frame but that doesn't mean they can guarantee grow up to 85cm & above even in a lightly stock big pond with state of the art facilities. The offspring of a 96cm former multi trophies winner in Japan nickname 'Snowhite' gave birth few month back here. Those hobbyists who were qualify enough by the dealer to purchase the top tosai in the offspring can only hope to raise them to jumbo but no guarantee too even with their experiences & skills.
I'm a real tosai only in this hobby for a mere 9 months. I'm mostly incorrect. The Japanese might have their original version of 'Jumbo tosai' which I do not know at the moment.
Feeding Hikari excel might not be good for long period of time but that is still base on assumption. I'll continue to use it untill one day I notice something unusual happen to my koi or cause them to have unusual behavior. Sure will be heart broken but got to do what I got to do.

SF

[Maurice]

I'm not sure that everyone has the correct understanding of jumbo tosia from Momotaro.

Momotaro breed for size, as well as quality. They are chasing genetics to produce large show fish with youthful looks. Many koi from around Japan do not reach 80cm+, of those which do, some have lost their youthful appearance, their skin quality, luster and scales often take a downward turn because they can be 10 to 12 years old by this time. So Momotaro try to make these large sizes at a younger age.

By culling much harder than would be the norm for most koi breeders, they end up with fewer, but on the whole larger, higher quality babies. They breed many more sets than your average koi breeder, 10 fold more than most. But they do not end up with 10 times the number of keepers. Normal keep rate in Japan would be around 2%, at Momotaro it is .5%.

Parents koi at Momotaro are own bred, they do not just keep koi with quality; candidate parents must also have large size. Forced large size is of no use, it must be a natural larger size, GENETICS!

When it comes to harvest time, the tosia come out of the mud ponds larger than would be normal for tosia born at other farms. They do nothing unnatural; they are just fed the same as any other mud pond tosia. They have a head start in the growth stakes, because of the large parent genetics.

With a selected few, they placed into concrete ponds and are heated and fed to a level to make JUMBO TOSAI, come spring these are 40cm+ and even up to 50cm. There is no FORCE FEEDING, just exceptional water quality. The other tosia are just kept as would any other tosia during winter in Japan, in good quality heated water and fed to sustain their health and achieve a little growth. I know of another breeder which injects pure oxygen into the water of all their concrete pond held koi, but this is NOT done at Momotaro, they are raised naturally when compared to other breeders in Japan.

So the bigger sizes are due to selected breeding from parents with jumbo genetics and careful selection of babies which carry these jumbo genetics. Not by unnatural raising techniques.

I have heard of people knocking ‘crap, rip off jumbo tosia from Momotaro. My answer to this is ‘do you know the dealer offing these high quality jumbo tosia? Not every koi coming out of Momotaro is top quality show material; they do not all make BIG sizes. You have to judge the koi yourself before buying; a 25cm tosia in spring from Momotaro is not a jumbo! It’s bigger than most koi of its age, but not JUMBO.

I’ve been to Momotaro 3 times and know it is possible to buy real high quality tosia for reasonable money, let these koi grow out for a year and end up with a koi worth a whole lot more money. I’ve bought Tosai in Niigata for more money and been totally disappointed at the result a year down the line.

I’m not sure how these larger koi will fair, with regard to lifespan, they have not been raised to these larger sizes for long enough, but who is planning on keeping their koi for 20 years plus? Big koi are difficult to handle and move. That I see as the biggest down side and most fatalities I have heard of with big koi is due to moving between pond, show vat and reestablishing back into the pond.

Most koi bought from Momotaro will grow to be big koi, you can’t stop them! Sorry you can by bad koi keeping!

Maurice.