'Monster kohaku'

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by dtbh Hi aquitori This is the first time I am reading it, but do spirulina-based food actually cause hikkui? I have asked this cos I have been using only spirulina-based food for years now. Hikkui, touch wood, none yet. As regards this "jumbo" thingy, to me it is a fad. At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves why we have gone into this hobby. If it makes one happy by all means go for it. We are always learning and those who have purchased "jumbo" tosais probably would like to know what will happen to them in a few years. Anyway lets not kid ourselves; many of us do not have the luxury of space to grow jumbos (kois>80cm) and I note that the word "jumbo" has been misused in that sense. I personally like to enjoy my koi esp being able to feed them frequently and to maintain, if not, improve their quality. Anything else esp growth-wise is a bonus indeed. Cheers, Teh

Higher content spirulina-based food in my opinion cause Hikkui or one of the factors...I am saying this because there is no real case study of this issue. I just study others feeding habits and water conditions. Hobbyist seem to feed high spirulina-based foods to make the beni far deeper than the bloodline would allowed. I think that if your into beauty now then by all means feed all the spirulina you want. But in the long run if the we want our fish to look good, we should cut back on the spirulina and let the fish develop naturally.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maurice I'm not sure that everyone has the correct understanding of jumbo tosia from Momotaro. Momotaro breed for size, as well as quality. They are chasing genetics to produce large show fish with youthful looks. Many koi from around Japan do not reach 80cm+, of those which do, some have lost their youthful appearance, their skin quality, luster and scales often take a downward turn because they can be 10 to 12 years old by this time. So Momotaro try to make these large sizes at a younger age. By culling much harder than would be the norm for most koi breeders, they end up with fewer, but on the whole larger, higher quality babies. They breed many more sets than your average koi breeder, 10 fold more than most. But they do not end up with 10 times the number of keepers. Normal keep rate in Japan would be around 2%, at Momotaro it is .5%. Parents koi at Momotaro are own bred, they do not just keep koi with quality; candidate parents must also have large size. Forced large size is of no use, it must be a natural larger size, GENETICS! When it comes to harvest time, the tosia come out of the mud ponds larger than would be normal for tosia born at other farms. They do nothing unnatural; they are just fed the same as any other mud pond tosia. They have a head start in the growth stakes, because of the large parent genetics. With a selected few, they placed into concrete ponds and are heated and fed to a level to make JUMBO TOSAI, come spring these are 40cm+ and even up to 50cm. There is no FORCE FEEDING, just exceptional water quality. The other tosia are just kept as would any other tosia during winter in Japan, in good quality heated water and fed to sustain their health and achieve a little growth. I know of another breeder which injects pure oxygen into the water of all their concrete pond held koi, but this is NOT done at Momotaro, they are raised naturally when compared to other breeders in Japan. So the bigger sizes are due to selected breeding from parents with jumbo genetics and careful selection of babies which carry these jumbo genetics. Not by unnatural raising techniques. I have heard of people knocking ‘crap, rip off jumbo tosia from Momotaro. My answer to this is ‘do you know the dealer offing these high quality jumbo tosia? Not every koi coming out of Momotaro is top quality show material; they do not all make BIG sizes. You have to judge the koi yourself before buying; a 25cm tosia in spring from Momotaro is not a jumbo! It’s bigger than most koi of its age, but not JUMBO. I’ve been to Momotaro 3 times and know it is possible to buy real high quality tosia for reasonable money, let these koi grow out for a year and end up with a koi worth a whole lot more money. I’ve bought Tosai in Niigata for more money and been totally disappointed at the result a year down the line. I’m not sure how these larger koi will fair, with regard to lifespan, they have not been raised to these larger sizes for long enough, but who is planning on keeping their koi for 20 years plus? Big koi are difficult to handle and move. That I see as the biggest down side and most fatalities I have heard of with big koi is due to moving between pond, show vat and reestablishing back into the pond. Most koi bought from Momotaro will grow to be big koi, you can’t stop them! Sorry you can by bad koi keeping! Maurice.

Maurice, we're not knocking Momotaro one bit but the fact is that siblings in the same cull will eventually catch up in size to their bigger siblings correct? It's how long does the hobbyist wants to wait. Anyways, with "Jumbo" Tosai they can go any direction just like any Tosai regardless size or not we know that for a fact.

[Maurice]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Maurice, we're not knocking Momotaro one bit but the fact is that siblings in the same cull will eventually catch up in size to their bigger siblings correct? It's how long does the hobbyist wants to wait. Anyways, with "Jumbo" Tosai they can go any direction just like any Tosai regardless size or not we know that for a fact.

I'd disagreee with your satement regarding the other siblings catching up. In my experience the 'shooters' with the big genetics will always be bigger. There is no way I ever see the little ones catching up. I own a 10" yonsai kohaku, it lives in a pond where I can get 6" growth in a season, you tell me???

If that were the case, where are all the sibblings from the 101cm sanke which won the all Japan 3 years back?

Big genetics are one thing, but the trate is not always passed on.

Maurice.

[soelistyo]

Kiky, it seems peculiar to me that your dealer wouldn't disclose the source of the fish. perhaps it's a lesser known breeder or a hobbyist. i can't think of any decent reason why he'd want to keep it a secret.
oh well, i guess as long as the fish is a good one the breeder name is not that important.

for me, i always like to know the breeder. we pay a lot for these fishes (especially if you bought it in Indonesia!) i think it's always good to know the source if for nothing else than our knowledge for future references/buying decisions.

as for the comment that size is just a bonus, well there surely is something more special about a big koi. the way it swims, the majesty of its presence, even the best finished koi of 50cm can never compare to a similar class koi which is 30cm larger. i love the gosankes (60cm+) in my pond, but i always wish they were the size of my soragoi (89cm). and i get a kick out of non-koi people seeing the bigger fish in my pond, despite the duller color, and gasping at its sheer volume. it's always the big soragoi that attracts attention and affection.judging from some of the posts above, i'm probably shallow and greedy in comparison to others, who appreciate kois whatever size they are, but it's my honest opinion that there is nothing like a nice jumbo swiming around in your pond. Some other koi lovers may be more patient in letting their koi grow at their rate or even possibly stop altogether, but for me i start culling whenever i feel the koi has no more hope of reaching at least 70cm+. since i won't splurge on a jumbo outright and my ponds are not big enough to close an eye towards undergrowing fish, i try to save the pond space for a young koi that still has potential to reach a good size. is there really a koi afficinado who doesn't wish their fish would reach 80cm, and who simply see growth as nothing but an added plus? if there is genuinely such a hobbyist, i applaud his/her sense of contentment. in the meantime, i'll continue to get to work and seek out ways to end up with my ultimate koi dream of having nothing but a few 80cm+ fish living in my pond.

[saratogatan]

Aq, next time you come out scouting ponds in SJ, please give me a shout. You are invited to my pond. No big deal pond, but a mixed of every pond ideas.

For others, Momotaro does not mean jumbo. I have a Momo kohaku, maybe 25 month old, only 18-19", momo sanke, 12 month old, 13-14".

Since my retiremennt 7 months ago, and un-retirement 2 months ago, I have changed my mind set on this hobby. I almost bought 'Carol' the sanke from genki. I don't see myself going nut in that direction anymore. I am actually looking for a home for my top Kohaku, dainichi bred. I want the new owner to show me s/he is the ultimate nut in koi keeping and competition. This koi is very good, more or less 17", 25 month or so. I am still in the process of figuring how much I want to ask for it.

stan

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan Aq, next time you come out scouting ponds in SJ, please give me a shout. You are invited to my pond. No big deal pond, but a mixed of every pond ideas. For others, Momotaro does not mean jumbo. I have a Momo kohaku, maybe 25 month old, only 18-19", momo sanke, 12 month old, 13-14". Since my retiremennt 7 months ago, and un-retirement 2 months ago, I have changed my mind set on this hobby. I almost bought 'Carol' the sanke from genki. I don't see myself going nut in that direction anymore. I am actually looking for a home for my top Kohaku, dainichi bred. I want the new owner to show me s/he is the ultimate nut in koi keeping and competition. This koi is very good, more or less 17", 25 month or so. I am still in the process of figuring how much I want to ask for it. stan

Well I will take your offer on seeing your pond...Like I said these are just my opinions...Shot who's to say whats wrong or right. Haven't heard of you..But maybe you have heard of me...Tony's the name...

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maurice I'd disagreee with your satement regarding the other siblings catching up. In my experience the 'shooters' with the big genetics will always be bigger. There is no way I ever see the little ones catching up. I own a 10" yonsai kohaku, it lives in a pond where I can get 6" growth in a season, you tell me??? If that were the case, where are all the sibblings from the 101cm sanke which won the all Japan 3 years back? Big genetics are one thing, but the trate is not always passed on. Maurice.

Eventually is the term....That means sooner or later....Maybe, your right I have only been to Momotaro 1 time compared to your 4 times...Well anyways, we are not talking about Yonsai, Sansai or whatever else-sai. We are talking about Tosai. We are comparing the growth rate of Jumbo Tosai to Tosai. To my point what is the biggest Gosanke you have grown from Jumbo Tosai? Have you noticed a slow in growth after 80cm or 32inches? I don't know the size of your pond but if you can grow a Jumbo Tosai to 80cm I bow at your feet!!! Anyways, it took the 101cm Sanke to grow that big 11 years....Being that the fish is dead we will never know....I am sure there are some siblings out there that are around 90 to 95cm...

[James P]

Maurice, Toshio sakai's 101 cm sanke has two sisters. One is expected to become larger that her famous 101 sanke sister now that she 'gone'. JR

[JasonPoon]

Jumbo size+rapid growth......interesting.

[dick benbow]

I wish we could have got JR to have added his take on the situation.

I know from breeding koi that the bigger koi in the beginning do take off. genetics and room to grow is critical.

In studies i've read where the studies done on feeding and wintering of
one and two year olds in heated greenhouses during winter make gigantic immediate differences in size for those koi. In the article it also said that their siblings who wintered naturally would eventually catch up to be similar in size.( the article came from an interview with Mr Maeda of Momotaro's.)

But I think the point Maurice is making is that there is a difference in koi whose parantage and expertise of the breeder is being used to grow special individuals that are graced with the genes to grow big. These are not koi that are equal but rather a special class within themselves. I think the momotaro's
image is made by genetically superior breeders, gigantic deep grow ponds,
fantastic attention to water quality and a spot on feeding regiment.

I remember not too many years ago after exhaustive studies and personal experience with matsunosuke bloodline koi, i would interest friends into visiting
the brothers facilities. They would always come back and say, the koi they saw were too thin and long, no body. What they didn't realize is that's the way these koi develop, length first, then the barrel chestedness would come
when they'd maxed their growing conditions.

I think it really helps to study a bloodline and see how it's developed by the breeder.

Not too many years ago Sakai of Hiroshoima became quite famous with his sensuke bloodline kohakus. He bred their red, reder and redder, until some
fanatics who felt the genetics should be kept "pure" complained he was ruining the bloodline. I could go into pages of what this sensuke brought to the table but the point is it was only a tool to get this genious to where he was going, not an end in itself.
well enough rambling... I hope this may have brought something worthwhile
for someone's understanding!