Speaking of Supply Side of Things

[MikeM]

B. Scott: You are exactly right, but I think the point Dick was making was a little different .... that what the koi kichi come to know as a particular breeder's line is made from more than genetics. There is an art to it in the eye of the breeder.

Some time back Brady B. shared some photos with me in a private message of tosai from lines of Showa, Sanke and Kohaku he is developing. [It is for him to post them if he wants.] The "eye" of the breeder could not have been more clear. The similarities were so great that on first impression they could have been fraternal triplets. Their culled siblings may have been spawned by the same hands, but were not the product of the same mind.

I am aware of more than a few breeders whose trash culls enter the trade as anonymous low grade koi for the domestic aquarium trade. They'd not allow their name to be associated with such culls, but the revenue helps make ends meet. I think their standard deserves respect. If a breeder does not choose to acknowledge a fish as one he bred, then the public should not be led to think the fish is deserving of the honor. No problem saying that one or both parents were Danichi-bred, but cannot say the fry are Danichi fry.

[Vogata]

I’m at the moment just sitting her reading up but you riddle my chain as normal.



We are glad and envious one your behalf after reading this tread. Totally agree in the trust and seek out part. We used seven years too find the one and its just three small country’s away. Her in Norway most off the Nishikigoi for sale are “Japanese” and its really no big add for the breeders we have learned too respect.

The grey zone feels more like a black one for us. We feel that in this age off communication and equipment there should bee only a modest cost involved in following the lower grade all the way home too us the customer. This would bee before comparing with the free advertising!



We don’t feel that it would harm the breeder to state that this is for example his lowest grade off Tateshit. In fact we brought home some off these a couple off year ago and the by far outperform most off the Nishikigoi available her. As you stated we even can recognise some off the traits. And when closing our eyes (not looking at the pictures you guys have) we know that we want a better one next time and from whom.



By implementing something like this the competition would take one a better taste. The novices would get a better feel for the hobby and relation too the sources and skills involved would bee clearer.

Too our knowledge there are not many (if any) her that can support there claim too Japanese Nishikigoi further than their name (Norway) As for breeders the answer for the same shipment often is whatever you as an customer will claim (tried this out with three different testers).



This ranting above is not too excluding anyone. We breed one the lowest ever-possible scale and have the deepest respect for anybody that can deliver nice and better Nishikigoi. Still out off the 20-50 Nishikigoi that leaves us every other year every one has its origin paper and data with them. They are just at our level nothing more or less.

[Vogata]

Sorry but as well as I understand your point it’s also the same thing that makes it hard for the best breeders to become household name in the start end off the hobby. Side by side with these every other origin and qualities will bee sold.



As long as there are now way off knowing they also will suffer when bad things happen. We have not the number off times that we have been in too this her at our low level. Since all are Japanese every sickness known koikind comes from Japan.

This is as we hope you understand not our view, but they do fetch a better price tagged as Japanese.

In our neighbouring country there are even a discussion (sincere one) about keeping Nishikigoi out if its breed outside their border. The responsibility off the individual breeder and importer is neglected since for most (if not all) its unknown.

[MikeM]

Vogata: You make a point about new hobbyists that deserves more attention, at least in the U.S. It is normal at local koi shows in Florida for there to be several area breeders selling domestic koi of very low grade at very low prices. The breeder-dealer is pleased with the profit of selling a 5-10cm tosai for $5.... He would pleased to get about $0.75 apiece selling direct to pet shops, and only pennies each selling to a wholesaler who supplies pet shops. A huge number of such trash koi are sold to new hobbyists. Talk to these breeders and some cannot even tell you what a Showa is. Their real experience is in mass producing aquarium fish, feeder goldfish (raised as a food for large aquarium fish) and the like. Koi are just another fish. [Do not confuse these "used car salesmen" of the koi trade with the few domestic breeders who truly are nishikigoi breeders, like Brandwood, McCann and some others.]

But, I have seen Japanese tosai that would not make it past the third cull imported by a well-known dealer to supply the same market at $15-$20 per koi, but only at koi shows where the volume can be sold quickly and the cost of holding inventory avoided. The breeder(s) are not mentioned. These tosai are low grade by Japanese standards, but have better color and form than the domestically produced trash koi. The new hobbyists are immediately attracted to the better color and the imports sell out. Such koi will not amount to much in the eyes of the koi kichi, but I think they do more to elevate awareness of new koikeepers.

I am not eager to see a lot of Japanese cast-offs, but it would be an improvement on all the domestic trash koi. The competition at the low-end of the hobby could only help expand the high-end. Problem is, the dealers who focus on quality cannot make a sufficient profit to carry such tosai regularly, and the aquarium trade does not sell much in the over $10 retail price range. It is a marketing conundrum... the mass market pushes pricing down to the trash koi level, while the kichi market pushes pricing to absurd heights only the koi-addicted could ever think rational.

[Vogata]

If we should be our own judge for the fun off it we place us self in the trash compartment. Still we give out an authentic document, if we only could get this over too all levels off Nishikigoi out off serious outlet. There hopefully would bee an turn in the newbees level off awareness. We would bee delighted to get more hobbyists interested in the ones that really breed with a higher goal in mind.

It would sometimes be god just too get a confirmation on the commitment from the better outlets. It would bee much like the origin or control we expect when buying steal or meat. We do believe that when the ordinary consumer starts asking or demanding accountability it will come and bring out a better environment for all that are committed.



I have not the number off times we have had to put in one off our “trash” Nishikigoi just for the sake off not losing a fellow hobbyist. For us before we went abroad it was hard (read impossible) to get even a copy off the original health certificate. Yes the one that follows all Japanese shipment. Needless to point out that when there are no trace off breeder or origin blame goes all ways and then often hits the wrong targets.

We do know that the best ones are always with a certificate and often with photos. Still isn’t this the wrong end for quality control and marked building? When push print on one Kawarimono the cost is the A5 but the message is, its or beloved and well keep one. We stand for its health and hope you also will take care of it…



If its really so that Japanese breeders wont bee associated with Nishikigoi below show level, well then its only fair to assumed that this will bee in the hands off some neighbouring country or other hard to control source. We hope that this is not a part off their strategy, but it’s hard to understand her far away.

[B.Scott]

Of course nobody disputes your right to sell fish of what ever quality you wish or are able to produce. The certificate is a moot point as in the end you get what you pay for. A $10 koi is still a $10 koi no matter who breeds it or how many papers hang on the wall.

People will often pay big money for large fish even if they are butt ugly. Two years ago we had people catching and selling koi taken from moat of the castle in Arcen where the Dutch show is held. These are fish that were thrown into the water because they were so ugly nobody would buy them. These small ugly fish are now large ugly fish. As I said many people just want large fish and they can fetch several hunderd euros from people just starting out and with little taste or understanding of nishikigoi.

It's one of the standards in the hobby that people starting out buy cheap fish and dream of them turning into some semblence of those great hulks of fish they have seen displayed here and there. Those of with experiance know it ain't gonna happen. Better to take the money and buy a lottery ticket. If you win you can buy a proper fish.
B.Scott

[swordfish]

Well said B.Scott & I think those people buying cheap ugly koi is one of the reason many hobbyist gave up the hobby. Imagine after spend so much time, energy,reading,etc. & your koi are still no way near to those pictures you saw in the mag.,book,internet,somebodyelse pond.

SF

[Akai-San]

I never thought about it like that. Breeders fingerlings and tosai are sold because they did not make the grade. How can something soooo simple, make me soooooo blind. All the koi offerred online are so-called recently"culled" stock?

So that means that potentially better tosai will be sold for much higher prices and in less availability. Does that mean the dealers that go to the breeders are buying the lesser quality tosai? And the only way to get the good stuff is to go there yourself or have a trusted dealer address your needs separately from the BULK BUY? Hmmmmmmm. Thanks B. Scott,

[bekko]

Is our friend Akai-San an exception to the rule? How many of you guys started with a proper pond and nice koi? How many anticipated becoming this obsessed with koi before they had their first fish or pond?

My view differs from that of swordfish in that I think low-end koi serve a valid purpose. For some, that's all they need or want - end of story. Others buy a few junk koi just to have some fish and end up getting hooked. If the price of koi started at several hundred dollars, fewer people would get into it to begin with, fewer would become adicted over time, there would be fewer people willing to buy the best fish, and there would be less impetus for breeders to improve their lines and stay in the koi business.

stevehopkins

[MikeM]

Akai-san: You got the point! .... but, there are always exceptions to any generality. Let us say a breeder reduces his tosai inventory to 500 over the course of a winter. Those 500 are the ones he thinks have the most potential. However, he may only be keeping 200 in a mud pond over the summer. After a winter of growth in heated indoor ponds, he needs to pick out the 200 with the best potential in his eye. The remaining 300 may be very good fish. Just not the ones he selected as having the best potential in that group of 500. The one he would rank as 201 in the group would be indistinguishable to the eye of most hobbyists. As one's "eye" for koi "improves", fish that would have been considered grand 10 years ago become mediocre. In a very real sense, "Junk", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. ....Go look at photos of top show koi from 1970s. Ordinary hobbyists all around the world now have koi of equal quality and think nothing of it. Perfection in koi is a moving target.