Biologist seeks Koi Clubs and enthusiasts wanted

[bekko]

You just say that to make sure they don't sell-out before you get one.
steve

[James P]

actually Steve, I say 'that' because I understand something about oxygen saturation at a given temperature. You can't get more pregnant or more dead. And you can't get more saturated at temperature. You CAN get super saturated at temperature but that is NOT a good thing.

So if this 'new poster' is a biologist ( which I doubt- a BS in biology from blankity, blank college doesn't count) I would say he is ignorant of this fact or a hussler- you pick! JR

[kckclass]

of what act, pray tell JR, should I feel ashamed, either in the way I deliver free goods to customers or banter with the devils within this thread? please do tell...

as for being ignorant, actually from 4th grade as a small child through 12th I was the science monitor and went on to 2 years pre-med. I was the guy who set up ALL of your lab experiments in school, tore them down at the end of a class and stored them in the back (and played black jack with the teacher while you did them)...I have a background in science and math that might surprise you having designed robotics, psychological testing software and a device for eye surgery that is currently in the hands of a patent engineer...so yes, there is a saturation point; do you have the meter that tells you when it has been hit? and if it's not absolutely saturated, would you argue that a little more oxygen wouldn't hurt? where is that fine line?

the point of the unit is NOT to provide oxygen or to replace stones/bubblers etc. it is to simply fill the pond on demand automatically. the other features are all icing on the cake and were pointed out to poor ignorant me by the biologist who bought one and who led me to find other folks who would collect data for some little study/report she is doing, not on my unit (although it is part of the report), but rather on several factors to increase fish size and life expectancy, growth etc.

I haven't and will never claim to be an MD, but engineer?...been doing that since I was a tyke.

[kckclass]

and p.s....

on the subject of MD's and life care it is not I who should be proud, rather my hat is off to
breeders such as yourself and in fact breeders of all species, as life itself
is precious; you have chosen a rather noble profession caring for and refining
a given species.

YOU, not I, are the MDs of sorts and certainly scientists far beyond my grasp in this
field and while the marine sanctuary that is encouraged to flourish (quite prolific) under my sailboat might be noble I do not
claim to have your ability to care for such a fragile organism as Koi in the hands of man in a manmade body of water.

my role here certainly is NOT to say 'gee, no it is YOU who should be ashamed for this or that post';

I welcome each inquiry as another perspective from folks who have interest and knowledge of what is required to do the voodoo you doo so well...

Your post (and questions on saturation is right on target; of course there is a saturation point and let's assume that most people never hit it and want more oxygen in their water, so we can and should discuss that aspect of pond maintenance, filter maintenance, old pumps etc., but...

really the point here is (and was) do you folks see a benefit in a multi-function device and more specifically, who out there is actually metering and testing (via an outside lab) their water on a regular basis?

THAT was what she wanted me to find. The rest of this is pure QnA and again I thank you for the Q's, please don't kick me in the A too much.

and beyond what you or I write here, there is a customer who just purchased one for a rather expensive Koi set up (based on his specs).

after he gets it in and gives me a bit of feedback that will be at the site as well as changes to our instructions based on what he found clear and what needed polish, we'll have a new slice of data to chew on.

when I saw black algae (anaerobic) almost disappear from an old ladies pool who used this I was a bit shocked. a pool builder pointed it out first and I didn't really think much of it..yet the pool never was shocked with chemicals and it practically (not completely) disappeared over a 3 month period due to something that changed...and the only thing she did was add one of these. that sort of led us down this 'oxygen' path in the first place.

After all, when all is said and done, it is the words and real-world experience from people USING any product that count most; which may explain why I followed the biologist's request to start this investigation in the first place. my apology if something herein offends or isn't 'kewl' by someone's standards...coming from a scientific background I WANT TO KNOW what works and what doesn't. To sell junk isn't in me; my eBay feedback clearly states I deliver what's promised and the support is 200% of anything from anyone at any price; I've done it that way for decades and am damn proud of it (see wife story above hee hee).

Meanwhile, I'm just asking questions, getting asked questions and doing my best to answer them honestly. my hope is your questions come from an objective concern over how any device from anyone can help your koi enjoy a longer, happier life.

That, after all, would be a common goal amongst this group eh?

[Roddy Conrad]

If the technology does as claimed, and has the "big UV light" as a part of the design, may I assume the working principle is to generate just the right amount of ozone in the unit to both provide more oxygen to the water, and kill undesirable algae, while not building up enough ozone concentration to be harmful to the fish? If a unit has been designed that does all that, then it might meet all the claims posted in this thread.

By the way, some forms of algae are DESIRABLE in a koi pond, so if the technology kills all forms of algae, it would not be a good thing for the koi in a backyard decorative pond.

I have a similar background to the person who started this thread, namely 40 years of Research and Development experience, a Ph. D in science (call it chemistry or engineering or rocket science, all those apply in this case), numerous patents on useful inventions in the chemical industry, and some grasp of koi ponding technology as a dedicated koi hobbyist. So if you want a useful "independent" test site, write me a private email proposal.

[MikeM]

Roddy: Please do participate in their experiment. We'll be awaiting the results. As kckclass said above, don't buy anything making such cure-all claims without thoroughly checking it out, talking with others who have used it, etc etc. .... You, Roddy, will be the only source of independent experience I know to exist. Let us know the results. I'm all in favor of cure-alls that work. Just haven't found any that do ... so far.

[kckclass]

Dear Roddy,

Independent testing on your part sounds great, but let's clarify a few things:

First, this unit is primarily designed to be an autofill. That was the original design and that is what it does.

Second, the other features; prime dry pumps, bleed filter air, install in under 30 minutes without drilling or digging or cutting pipe, were my design based on owning a leaky pool and not being satisfied with the choices and having friends in the engineering fields...pooof...we made one and sold it to the Air Force (probably not a good sign) who liked it so much they wanted more and a product was born.

As you know, evolution happens and 88 prototypes later we came up with a Model II which has a 5 year warranty as opposed to the 2 year warranty of the Model I. We still make both units.

Years passed as we fed the pool industry this device and one day we had this old lady buy one and she was a friend of a friend and had this black algae problem and after 3 months of use about 90% of it disappeared. A pool builder (a guy replacing some of her tiles) pointed out to us that it was probably th copious amount of oxygen/air it was adding to the pool via the side jets.

At the same/similar time, a Koi Breeder (the biologist in this thread) was having her pond built and we were approached by the builder who liked the features, came to the old ladies pool, saw the oxygen, reported to her what he saw, she liked it and they pointed out to us (we didn't discover this aspect really...they did) that it was a great addition to live ponds. Poof...a new vertical market was born for the product.

She liked it and asked if other koi people used it and I said we were just starting to knock on those doors and if she was interested in how they responded and she asked me to find Koi breeders who tested their water regularly for bacteria, algae, chlorine etc. and so this thread was born.

In the course of meeting folks in this industry we also discovered some products that degrade incoming chlorine with a UV light as well as knock out bacteria and algae. While I am sure many forms of organisms are beneficial to ponds, we did some research on chlorine and realized that by coiling the 12 feet of clear tubing (more or less could be added) and passing it under a high-wattage UV lamp (not supplied) the unit could do a number on bacteria and algae and chlorine as well.

It wasn't designed to add air to ponds...it just does that as part of the design and the ozone etc. you described actually isn't how it does it. It just does as part of it's metering functioins. It wasn't designed to zap orgs and chlorine in the water, it just can IF a UV lamp is employed on the clear tubing provided with the unit. As to desired wattage or footage of tubing, I have no clue; how long does water have to be under a UV light is most likely inversely proportional to length of tube and wattage and proportional to speed of flow. Since the unit has a rather 'slow flow' through the tubing compared to other parts of a pump/filter system, this is an area of 'tuning' I suppose by individual breeders who want to retain some orgs in that water. If left to it's own devices and a high power lamp was used I am fairly certain it would sterilize the water and perhaps that isn't a good thing after all. I don't know...you probably do.

As for the testing, right now we have a large pool supplier looking at it (he was impressed by the bullet proof warranty and multi-function aspects) and we are prepping new packaging for his review, a slightly different case to improve it's 'drop/kick/smash' resistance, although the Model II was already pretty tough, we're making it tougher, and getting his feedback before releasing the new design to the general market. We could end up changing a few things there as well and are holding back a bit on orders/advertising until we see what they say about it.

Having been a pool man (high school) and installed a variety of devices, all I can say about it as of now is that it was designed to be tough (able to eat mud and be dropped on concrete from 5 feet), and UPC code compliant (a building and planning engineer helped us out with a testimonial) and easy to install. All of the rest of the features are just bi-products of it's design.

Does that clarify a few things here? In honor of THIS market segment we are dedicating a huge links page for Koi Clubs everywhere (I might add, without spamming those who post their pics/links; restraint is the better part of valor) and I do believe once word gets out (fingers crossed) it will be the autofill of choice for breeders who want a unit with multi-feature capabilities. We shall see.

Now, for your 'independent test', I guess I should ask what size pond you have, what sort of pump/filter you use, what autofill you currently use, do you add air, how much, do you test your water for bacteria and algae regularly, would you test the UV aspect of this etc. I can PM you but there are a few folks here listening in and I have always tried to be blatently honest my entire life so no shields are required. If you find the unit sucks, tell it like it is here. If it performs, tell it like it is. That always works for me. If some aspect needs improvement for breeders, let us know and we'll figure a way to include it if we can.


Does that work for you?

[Roddy Conrad]

I do not presently use any autofill devices on our ponds or our swimming pool. This is a very wet climate here in Charleston, West Virginia, USA, so our swimming pool gets its "autofill" from the sky.

We have two main koi ponds. One is more or less "normal", outside, 3800 gallons of pond itself, outside, but then has 1700 gallons of water in the filter system which maintains a high stocking density of very large koi. The regular daily mechanical filter system purges do require daily water additions, this refilling of water could be automated with your device for test purposes. The water supply is "more or less normal" city water, with significant chlorine content, and I do have very good test devices for measurement of chlorine levels that could be used to test the device for chlorine removal versus test conditons. By the way, the city water frequently has high phosphate level, but that is another story, and I doubt any refill device can remove phosphates, which drive algae wild on occasion.

The other koi pond is inside the house in our basement. It is also about 3800 gallons, and also has a large well maintained filter system. For this pond, the mechanical filter cleanouts are weekly instead of daily, but again the refill could be automated for test purposes. I doubt you would want to test the device on this pond, since it is so unusual to have a koi pond inside a house, not many folks would find that data of real interest. Presently, however, all the koi are in this indoor pond for the Winter, the outside pond was drained for this winter to make some modifications to the plumbing (no koi pond is ever perfect!).

A coating of green algae on the pond walls is desirable for the health of koi in an outside koi pond. I don't see why or how the quality of refill water would make any difference in this desirable algae growth.

I keep our swimming pool highly chlorinated at 5 to 10 ppm chlorine content, and also add the standard algaecides routinely. So I do not have an algae problem in the swimming pool, although even with the chlorine and the algaecide, some algae does grow on the sides of the swimming pool in the middle of summer.

It is not clear to me yet what would be tested when testing the device, other than how much UV light, length of tubing, and flow rate conditions are required in a fill function to destroy normal city water chlorine content.

The outside koi pond has tremendous aeration in two large trickle tower filters. So the oxygen content is already high.

Write back and let's figure out whether any kind of test makes good sense.

[kckclass]

I don't know if testing is applicable for what you've described although the high chlorine content has possibilities. Right now we are redesigning the model II packaging for retail shelves and have a customer (also with an indoor pond) who has purchased one and we are testing the new model II on his pond. His feedback, once in and whatever modifications we make there will then result in a unit we want to test on a broader scale.

Ideally for us a pond with low oxygen (to test the aeration feature) and/or black algae or a bacteria problem and high chlorinated water (to test the UV feature) and regular lab analysis would be most helpful.

[B.Scott]

You are going to have to look long and hard to find some one on this forum with a pond suffering from low O2!