Koi Confirmation?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by swordfish Looking at pictures is not good enough cos only show you the top view of the koi. The side view of the fish is not shown or seldom shown at all. Looking from the side view body of the koi it should be like a 'diamond shape'. The Japanese does have a set of conformation standard. I have read somewhere couldn't remember at the moment. Have to understand the basic of koi appreciation & after looking at lots of koi personally 1st before one can understand why a koi can become GC. Go visit some of your koi dealers, see & ask questions. Books & pictures are only use as a guideline. Will not improve much by looking at pictures. SF

I think Dr. Kuroki's book pretty much set the standards for conformation, but most judges don't go by that notion anyways. I have seen koi with horrible conformation win major prizes at local shows....yes horrible!!! I have seen koi with pinched heads to over sized tail fins to whatever you can think of. I would have to disagree with the "not just" looking at magazines for conformation. Also, it depends on the magazines. What I have learned is that if you study the lines and the shape of each koi in the magazine you can see what conformation is good. "Loran" the Ogawa Kohaku had a below standard conformation being the head was a bit pinched, but in the end overall quality beat out fish with better body. I have been buying Nishikigoi Monthly for years now and I can't even read it. I study each photograph as if it was a painting. The conformation is the frame, the pattern is the painting. If you don't have a nice frame for the painting it doesn't stand out. People can learn from looking at pictures of koi. I do agree with you that they should ask their dealer or local koi veteran about things like this. But in the overall quality should be considered after comformation...

[swordfish]

Yes Dick any serious hobbyist before buying any high grade koi should get his water quality right in the 1st place. Some food like bread are known to cause pot belly. Not sure how true but would rather stay out of it. We are always at a learning stage in koi keeping which make this hobby so interesting. Patient & continuous learning is a virtue especially in this hobby.

SF

[bekko]

I feel as though I can recognize good confirmation in a mature fish, although my eye is surely not as adept as many of you here. What throws me is trying to predict what the finished confirmation will be when viewing young fish.

steve

[aquitori]

Dick's right in that most of us would buy a nice Nishikigoi in general and in the end it is up to us to maintain them.

[dick benbow]

Just a few observations aquired over the years which may help you sort out some things.

Shiros and showa lend themselves to being easily pot bellied with incorrect feeding regiments.

matsunosuke sanke and sensuke kohaku tend to have the kind of inheritence which lends itself to better body development.

[swordfish]

Thanks Dick for the info. Can you elaborate more on incorrect feeding regiments? I only have 1 showa from Dainichi cos my dealer advise me to keep only kohaku for the 1st 2 years before moving to other varieties of koi. This 2 years is also use for understanding more on water quality & my bio-filter. Though I don't notice any pot belly in my showa yet but certainly wouldn't want that to happen. My showa is nisai now. I feed him twice a day,morning & night. About 3% of it size.

SF

[Akai-San]

Anybody willing to post some pics of classic body types for all to see and compare? Would very much like to see comparisons of classic body types as it relates to each breeder. Can anyone post examples of Matsunosuke, Sensuke, Dainichi, or any noteable bloodline body type (conformation) with significant characteristics? Thanks.

[estanque_koi]

I'm rather skeptical about the concept of "body conformation". It is so logical and intuitive, that anyone is ready to quickly accept comments that appeal to boby conformation. However, the point is that it is extremely difficult -maybe impossible? to find anything else but relatively vague definitions. If there is no PRECISE definition of this "magic" concept and how to objectively measure it on a particular Koi, then there is an enormous risk of misuse.
I guess this lack of precission is key for leaving enough room for interpretation. Maybe this is why we can find pictures of champions (same size class) showing big differences in body conformation.

I don't think that examining lots pictures in detail can really sharp the skill to appreciate true body conformation. Pictures do distort the specimens portrayed, even more when the subject is a big koi aimed at 45 degrees with the camera. Even when you take a picture of something which is plane, there is an increasing distortion of the subject from the center to the edges of the picture. In other words, you can't appreciate the true body shape and proportions of a big koi in a conventional picture, simply because it is distorted.

On the other hand, it would be nice to have at least some simple rules about desirable proportions, for example what should be the proportion between maximum girth and maximum length? Maximum width and maximum length? ... This reminds me of the golden section, phi=1.618, based on the Fibonacci series. Would it be aplicable to koi appreciation?
It wouldn't be too difficult to apply image analysis techniques to get objective meassurements of the fish. This would allow to obtain accurate estimates of different key proportions. I mean, an expert system would be able to use these data to objectively compare body conformation among some finalist specimens in a given Koi show. The same might apply to appreciate the quality of the colors, since they can be very precisely defined and measured in terms of hue and intensity.

[bekko]

Good confirmation is like pornography - hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Your avatar looks snipe-nose and too thin behind the dorsal.

[B.Scott]

I think that any way you look at it you have to eventually see the fish as a whole. How does it look, how does it move, how do the various aspects change as you view it through different angles. The various proportions must be attuned to each other, No two fishes are the same but in the end all aspects much achieve a harmony and balance. As it all a combination that one finds pleasing it becomes harder to say exactly what it is you like as each related to the other.
Photos limit many of the aspects we need to make such judgments and therefore limit our ability to come to a proper conclusion.
B.Scott