Breeding Koi...I had no idea!

[gregbickal]

I am anxiously awaiting spring so I can get this years spawnings off with some of my new Japanese stock. I didn't get as many females as I wanted because of the earthquake, but I hopefully i'll have enough to produce a large spawning and plenty of fry.

[bekko]

ranskye, I thought you guys were not allowed to import any fish - ever. It starts making more sense when there is KHV to deal with.

-steve hopkins

[Akai-San]

Quote: Originally Posted by koifishgirl I need to know everything that I can about buying parent stock.

KFG,
After starting this thread and learning more about breeders and their responsibility to breed koi to improve and or develop exceptional lineages of their own. I have developed my own opinions regarding the odds of even trying to get decent looking koi are 1/100000 (if you're lucky) Pending on variety of course. And these would not even be show quality, then you may be looking in the realm of 1/2000000 (if you're lucky).

Then try and think deeper into the subject of breeding stock. The only way one can expect to get good offspring is to be sure to get top quality parent stock. Top quality parent stock in my humble opinion will always be unattainable for my budgets. I expect good (not great) parent stock to cost in the range of $10000-$25000 each. From proven and develop lines. At least you will have a good idea of what to expect the fry to be like. Then finally finding a pair of koi that will actually spawn and give quality offspring (a huge unknown). You could have some of the best females and males to spawn, but if they genetically don't match up right, they make "ugly babies." amounting to a negative $20K-$35K. Makes you wonder what Brad Pitt's & Jennifer Aniston's babies will look like...LOL.

Anyway, I think before you start BUYING parent stock, you should spend time understanding where the koi varieties came from, what makes a good koi and how to identify "high-quality" koi, how koi develop, how koi don't develop, how koi can go wrong, how to handle and care (vet care) for koi, how to assess and judge koi attributes and defects, I can go on forever on this...I find each topic fascinating.

For me, I believe that there are many things to learn and experience first hand before jumping into the breeding ring. Just my two cents on to breed or not to breed (Another one of my threads). I think something to think about very seriously. Aloha.

[MikeM]

Dick makes an important point. In Japan it is understood that even sons who have lived koi from birth need years of apprenticeship training through working for knowledgeable breeders. This tradition is an important part of koi breeding.

Dick: Is there still a practice of the apprentice earning parent koi when the time comes to move on?

KFG: Even if they will not allow you to work, a week's vacation spent visiting an operating koi farm would teach a lot.

[dick benbow]

yes Mike, that practice is still in place. All a student gets is room and board. At the end they have the opportuinity to get a breeding pair.

one bit of info for KFG, when it comes to breeding kohaku.

tancho to tancho don't breed all tancho. they breed kohaku.

the number of steps on a kohaku doesn't mean you will get that many steps with the fry Take a look at sakai hiroshima's brood koi or maeda's eagle. Simplistic patterns on their females. Remember this breeder's name from Ojiya.
hasegawa. I heard he got hit really hard from the earthquake. his males throw
unique patterns. sakai of isawa bought one from him a few years back. his stuff is not noted for size but the quality is there.

[koifishgirl]

If some one could help me I would like to post the pic of the Kohaku that has been selected for a parent koi. I need someones email that I can send pic to so you can post for me.

Thanks guys I understand that I have a long way to go in learning about koi. I will spawn and spawn and spawn if I have to. I really want to do this and think you do not have to give a arm and a leg for parent koi, I believe that you just need good bloodlines to get some good koi, great looking koi can throw a bunch of junk and have good bloodlines. So why pay alot of money for the best, when its the genitics pool, I think like this and I may be wrong but my koi is coming from good parents so why cant she throw me some good un"s, cause God dont make no mistakes. The genes are their are they not?

[ranskye]

thanks for the replies guys and girls, good info, i know i wont be paying that much for a good breeder.. maybe a couple of grand at most. if people didnt tell me i had shit fish i wouldnt know.. but know i know and id rather do a bit better but yeh not that much!

i wont be spending ridiculous amounts of time to try come up with the best fish in the world. thats not my scene, i produce heaps of fingerlings, now atleast if i would come up with a million koi in one year and then i could say that there were some good fish in there..as opposed to having all rubbish to offer someone, then one day maybe id have something pretty special.
that is how genetics goes, as for brad and jennifer.. yes theyd probably be good looking kids, have money and be able to act ok. then again maybe theyd be expected too much of and turn to drugs or something..but yeh better looking than most, some rejects but some beauties.ha.
i just want some good quality stock, if you saw what i was playing with youd know why.

steve, yes your right we arent allowed to import for khv being the reason, still rumour is it is possible to get some stock in if it is certified khv free so as to improve our stock here. rumour has it also that there is some decent stuff around, either from before this law or what came over in someones suitcase..

ill have a look, maybe itll make me happy enough to atleast have something that breeds true. hard to find here though. lots of crossing out.
i had this green koi once, i noticed it and let it go so id see what it would turn out like and it mustve been eaten up or something.
how could you live with yourself if you killed a koi that cost 30,000 bucks.
ahh unless 30,000 was like my 500 bucks.
ok back later.

[ranskye]

oh and thanks akai-san, i hear you on the other things first. good point.

[Akai-San]

Interesting question that probably only the real "artists" can answer.

I used to think that way too. Until I experienced several outcomes of breedings that led me to start this thread. Again, IMHO, I think that even if you have mediocre koi, your chances of reproducing good koi is almost nill. You may get other mediocre koi, but my guess is that a majority will be junk (I'm just guessing) However, I'm sure mother nature may throw a curve ball into the spawnings every once in a while, but can you find that needle in the hay-stack? I would guess if you don't know what you're looking for, probably not.

Who knows, some hobbiest may end up with a winning breeding pair that cost $1000; that threw excellent koi offspring. What a great dream come true. You would also have a lot of jealous hobbiest...hahaha. Why do you think the "artists" use and keep "the best" koi that they have for breeding to strengthen their lines. I beleive they want to give themselves the best chances for success.

Locally, speaking to some of the club members in Hawaii who breed regularly, they admit that it is really difficult to produce koi that they would want to keep for themselves. And these breeders use expensive koi with proven bloodlines. Again, it is also about matching breeding pairs...Yet another topic that will take 10 years of breeding experience to even comment on. These long time breeders work hard at strengthening their lines, and still they often are disappointed with their outcomes. Even Grand Champion Koi, often are retired because breeding wise, they do not pan out...Just my two-cents...again!

[Maurice]

I spent 8 days culling my best sanke spawn, every day till night fall, several hundred thousand (I lost count!!), Mike Sanden helped me with the last few thousand.
The ones that are any good, I can count on one hand.

Who'd be a breeder?
Maurice.