Flawed Koi used as breeders

[MikeM]

Luke raises the ethical issue of killing millions of fish to obtain a few, and suggests it is less moral when the breeding efforts are likely to pass on defects. I've come to accept the fact that it is inherent in fishkeeping of all types that virtually all pet fish will be dead within months of being bought, and usually die more horrible deaths than Nature would provide through consumption by predators. There is an immorality to creating life knowing one will promptly kill it, but as long as the fish are cultivated ones, bred in captivity for purposes of the hobby, I accept the notion that "positive" of creating life is balanced by the "negative" of the killing, for a net neutral result .....perhaps I am just rationalizing because I prefer not to label my hobby "immoral"?

[Tom C]

Quote: These include flared gills, missing eyes or fins, bent heads, scoliosis, etc. I have never heard of anyone selling koi which are obviously deformed.

Steve I have to say you might not sell koi like above, but it happens everyday. Over the years we have got thousands of koi. A lot were from domestic breeders. I have to say Steve you are so wrong with saying breeders do add them to the bag. I have had koi that you could see from a block away the deformity in it. Over the years I would guess I have put 500 or more koi down because of all of the thing you said.

Here is a picture of some domestic koi we got a few years ago. The only picture I could find is this one, but I had a picture of the whole bag of them before. This is how 2 box's of koi came. This picture was taken as the bags were open.


Is this a koi that should have been shipped. Remember it was 100 koi just like this one, not just one. The people that sold them to me said they were just a little thin. I guess they were, but it was from costia. He would not do a thing about the sick koi. I must of got 5,000 koi or more from him over the years, and he doesn't want to do a thing about it. That's not right if you ask me.

This is just me, I can't talk for others. But it seems like some domestic breeders don't care much about the customers or dealers. It's all about money. If some of these domestic breeders would talk to people like Brett and Brady they would have more customers/dealers talking better about them. This is part of the reason I don't buy to many domestic koi anymore. Most hobbyist don't care much if they are pond mutts or not. So I will not put them or you down if you breed pond mutts or not. Like you said pond mutts can be healthy koi. Pond mutts are get for most people starting out because of the cost of them.

As for imports I have to say it's night and day if you ask me. The down side to this is the cost. Most smaller dealer buy them from other dealers, so by the time they get them the cost has gone up a few times higher. When you get people out to buy koi, a lot of the time they don't plan on spending $20+ on a small koi. This is why we still sell some domestics. But a lot of times they see what they can get for $10 more and go with imports. Maybe the reason I don't get to many deformed imports is because they have been handled by a few people before I get them. But since we have been selling them I can count the deformed koi on one hand. This is another reason why I like imports over domestic koi.

As for deformed koi being used as breeders I don't know much about them. Maybe Luke can give us a little more info on that. I think he works with one from time to time, is it maybe that breeder he's talking about?

Tom

[aquitori]

Anyone who sell's fish in that condition regardless of it being Domestic or Japanese should hang themselves.

[MikeM]

Tom, it is hard to believe their in it for the money, because shipping that is sure to mean you'll not ship again to that customer!

[bekko]

Tom,

That fish looks more like it is malnourished to me. A heavy parasite load could do it as well. Nonetheless, I agree it should never have been sold. Makes my junk look pretty good.

Part of the reason you do not see really bad imports is that it is difficult for the Japanese to compete in the market for really bad fish. It costs almost as much to ship a bad fish as it does to ship a good fish. When the price per fish is very low, shipping costs become a huge factor. In addition, there is probably an extra middleman or two between Japanese and the local pet store as compared to domestic farms. Every time the fish changes hands the cost nearly doubles. The producer is lucky to receive 25% of the retail price and the norm may be closer to 15%.

However, koi of this poor caliber is a different product, almost like a separate species, compared to the fish generally discussed on this board. It is a completely different marketing chain and targets a completely different consumer group. When a consumer makes the leap from koi as lily pond accessories to koi as living art, they change from one marketing segment to the other. They can no longer buy koi at the local pet mega-mart and have to seek out the specialty shop. Agreed, domestic farms tend to dominate the market for low-end fish marketed through the aquarium stores. There are economic and logistical reasons why this is so. However, I hate to see all domestic koi being painted with the same brush. There are serious domestic breeders out there like Brett, Brady and Maurice who cater to the koi-as-living-art market. Whether they are serious contenders for the Japanese breeders will continue to be debated. The fact that this debate is so heated speaks to the quality of their product.

That said, I think here is a place for crappy koi in this world - just like there is a place for crappy goldfish and crappy guppies. For many consumers, if they had to pay big bucks for fish which they know will be dead within a year, they would not buy fish. All fish keepers have to start somewhere and killing a bunch of them initially is part of the learning curve. Some stay at the bottom of the learning curve and finally move on to begonias or baseball cards. Others progress on the learning curve and move on to serious koi.

Mike M,

Your thoughts on the value of fish born to serve the pet trade mirror my own. This could be an interesting thread in itself. The animal rights and animal welfare movements threaten to create conflicts in this arena. The conflicts are already building in Europe and the US will not be far behind. In Europe, it is already politically incorrect to sell fish labeled as "feeders". They now just call them small and inexpensive fish. Few consumers know how many fish are born and die for each one that they carry home in the plastic bag.

steve hopkins

[Tom C]

WOW, Steve I never said you sell junk. But you did at the top of your post. I'm guessing you mean lower grade koi right?

Lower grade koi are needed in this hobby. If it wasn't for them most of us would be in the hobby. I had a hard time paying $20.00 for a koi years ago. I never thought I would be spending the kind of money I am now on a FISH.

I wish I saved some other picture of some koi I got over the years. You would have been shocked to see how bent some were. I know breeders are dealing with large numbers of koi, so some will get through from time to time. But when your dealing with 6" to 10" they should have been culled a few times I would think.

For me health is #1 for any koi we get or sell. It doesn't have to be that great GC koi for me.

On the koi that I posted. These koi were so weak and so full of costia I put them all down. I know some don't want to hear that. But I thought it would be best for them and me.

Tom

[luke frisbee]

Hmmm as to the question directed to me..No I don't see Joe Pawlak breeding koi that he sees are defective....I do see him breeding koi that would never be GC but would be very desirable by 95% of the koi buying population (please forgive me Joe but... Joe Pawlak breeds Long-fins too!). And then again alot of his spawns have some kick-butt parents...some of em are beat up...but not genetically-flawed. Then again? Some ponds are spawned for the General population and others with the discerning hobbyist in mind....he still sells alot from the discerning pond to garden center but he looks in those pond for some cream to rise...cream with good genetics.

But I read alot of the old magazines( Mike M's got most of them now) and they talk of how to get a good spawn by taking a koi with this problem and breeding it to a koi with this or that to have a better looking offspring...why not breed koi that come into the pairing with at least no obvious genetic deficits?


and Bekko Thanks for putting your thoughts and some theory together so well.

[Mike T]

Steve:

Nigel C. once told me, "When you right, you Wrong" so appropriate in this case....

I apologize for my comments re: your situation... To me and I think many other koi hobbyists, Pond Mutt means average koi, purchased for enjoyment of color and relaxation with no chance of ever winning an award...Not a mixed breed, like me....

My point which obviously was not conveyed is that there are many levels of Breeders...Not all can or even aspire to raise a grand champion, while I'm sure every breeder would like to, they have to live within their limits and realities...

I was trying to point out that you and may others fill a niche which is very necessary... inexpensive fish which may not last a year, so you can't buy GC as your brood stock...

Will email you about bamboo after posting this...

Aloha! Mike