Potential Sumi Development in Showa

[dick benbow]

Genetics and water have a lot to do with sumi development. The most startling sumi I ever had in a koi was a nisai I added to my brand new cement pond and the black just poped out. The koi you look at when I post is going to be 6 this
may and her blacks is like watching grass grow. slowly advancing. She comes from Igarashi kazuto and had minimal black on her as a tosai. Usually It takes some 8 years for a koi like her to develop but I think she may rewrite the books.
I haven't helped her case thos, falling in love with asagi and constanly tweaking the water to get lower and lower hardness! (lol)
When I look for one or two year olds to buy I always look for a display pattern that is strong in the head and shoulders than the tail. Black is always stronger in the tail and is most hard to get the face and critical shoulder to come in. My koi kichi bought a koi GR showa from a pic on ebay and asked my thoughts before he bought. It had heavy black in the shoulder and heavy on the head and black at the base of the tail. I told him to get the koi and set a price limit. All along the dorsal this winter you can see black begining to space itself from the shoulder to the tail tube. The black is coming just as i imagined and the koi looks as if it will be really something in two years! By the way the heavy black on the face is begining to condense and more and more white is showing. Also her black in the pec is beginning to condense as well. I have a friend in Spokane that has purchased one of toshios new sanke and showas with his "new" black. saw pictures last night. I will be watching what these koi do in development. Awsome black! The guy's still the Master!

[koifishgirl]

Yes I agree, as we are the buyers of the koi and they would more than llikey love to have their koi pics posted all over the forum . I know If I were selling koi I would be happy and if I could would thank the one responsible for makeing my sales go up. Think about it, it is just veiw for everyone without haveing to pay the price. I hope this happens if I ever start selling koi.

[Mike Snaden]

Well, if the Koi happens to be from my website, feel free to post and discuss it. But, if my description on the 'Yume' site is a negative one, maybe best to refrain from it, as at least it's honest! (to the best of my understanding)

Mike.

[FowlPlayFarm]

I really like Showa especially the older style. Well these are my two that are about 7-8 inches. Remember I am on a budget! Just starting out so no clue really what to look for. First one - I wanted to buy one first on conformation and pattern second, looked for one that did not have alot of red and was heavy on the black in the face shoulder area. Black that is up looks really deep, Black has come up overlaying the red on the body (Kasane sumi ?), I heard that is considered unrefined in Japan. Really bought it for its conformation and tail thickness. Second fish - I wanted to "buy the red" and take it to the other extreme to compare as a learning process on development between the two. Red is beautiful on this one and really like the tsubo sumi band that is starting to show between the two hi plates, if it develops it looks like it will wrap the koi. (on a side note) Very funny eater starts at bottom and comes straight up very slowly then stays about 1/2 inch under the surface perfectly straight up and down sucking big gulps of water.

Lester

[dick benbow]

Hi Lester nice to see your posting again. Hope your making progress with your pond. do you know anything about who bred your showa?

[dick benbow]

Just a quick note to help you to think about future selections. Male and female

develop red differently. In tosai if you select only by the quality of red you could be very well stacking the deck toward males. They finish so much quicker. The trick is to look for uniformity and density in the red as opposed to the brightest fire engine red you can find in the tank!





Please always remember the principle that if it has everything as a tosai where else can it go but down. Watching koi develop is a talent and something to be enjoyed not rushed thru.

[Arthur]

Lester,

I have tried several times to post a reply for you but get an eroor message.

I have advised the BB webmaster of the situation.

If the message is short there is no problem, but I had typed for quite a bit :-(

[Arthur]

For high quality with an eye on showing, I would not by tosai, unless I want to get an award at the Baby level (in which case another set of rules apply).

1) Go to a dealer you trust;
2) The best tosai will come from Japan in the Spring, usually April
(Tateshitas are liquidated in the Fall: not worth wintering in greenhouse,
in Spring, the breeder evaluates what tosai he will likely make the most
money off by growing out in whatever mud pond capacity he has,
the rest is sold off---the ones he thought worthy keeping over Winter);
3) Ask when the tosai actually got in, if less than a month wait or pass
(beside the necessary quarantine, tosai require that much to recuperate
from shipping and be over the inevitable stress);
4) Ask to see tosai in a group, preferably from the same breeder,
some dealers, and here trust comes in, will already have grouped
the tosai by potential (and price); never select a tosai by itself,
unless you are an expert (nobody really is with tosai :-);
5) OK, now you have a group of tosai in the price range you considering;
proceed by elimination (if the dealer knows you are going to spend
money, s/he will work with you);
a) if you know/trust the dealer, ask for assistance in the selection;
b) eliminate all tosai with defect(s) (should not be there in selected
high quality tosai): small pecs, unequal top/bottom tail, ...;
c) select for conformation and growth potential: long head, broad
shoulder, strong tail stop, equally space eyes, ...
6) Only now are you looking for YOUR tosai(s)...
As we started looking at Showa, I will proceed with a Showa
tosai selection;
7) Good bloodlines show their colors late: you are going to look for
a black swan, an ugly duckling;
8) Good hi and sumi come late in high quality Showa, so you are
looking for potential rather than what shows right now;
9) First and foremost, you want to see good shiroji: at this age,
almost transluscent (strong white would scream MALE), a slight
creamy coloring is OK as long as it is uniform (modern Showa
have Sanke blood in them); take out the tosai that do not pass;
10) Then, look for soft beni or under the skin hi for pattern; there should
be a spot or two (even small) where you can evaluate beni quality;
these should be on the head or shoulder (the rest can be under the
skin; if you are looking to grow the koi out, orangy color is best at
this time; look for thickness, not color; you are also looking for
an attractive (to you) hi pattern, either showing or underlying;
11) Now that you have only a few tosai left to look at, consider sumi;
this will be different if you are looking at old-style Showa or the
modern style Showa withh Sanke blood in them (old style will show
Kage unfisnished sumi, while the modern-style will show small sumi
withi kiwa); anyway in all cases, you are looking for sumi showing
in the front half, underlying and a couple spots where you can
evaluate the "fisnished" quality; do not look for sumi pattern: Showa
do change a lot in the first three years; it is not important to have
sumi in the back half of the fish as long as a) there is sumi on the pecs,
and/or b) there is a (little) sumi on the tail: sumi will come on the back
end with time (2-3 years).

I hope I did not bore you with this, and I am certainly not the best councel, (it is a long journey to knwo it all---this never happens) but this will give you a good starting base.

[bekko]

What does having the hi still under the skin at 9-10 months old predict about the quality of the beni when the fish is finished? If hi comes up slowly, is the fish more likely to end up in the "koi that fail" category? More likely to be female? Is the thichness likely to be as good? How do you judge the density of the beni if it is still under the skin?

If there is motoguro in one pec fin but not the other, is that OK? Will it likely spread to the other fin as it matures?

So many questions, so little time.

-steve hopkins

[FowlPlayFarm]

Dick,
Been Lurking
Main pond has slowed a bit due to weather and funds.
Breeder is Masuya for both.
Wife surprised me with a trip one day, said get in the car she ended up driving up north. She pulled in the place and said Merry Christmas. Selection was pretty thin for what we could afford and it being winter. I picked the two I was the most curious to see how they would turn out. Normally not the best conditions for selecting fish but she put alot of thought into it so I am chalking them up for learning fish.

Arthur, As always very informative and very much apprieciated, I could listen to you for hours. When the main pond is done I am taking a road trip to see a certain jovial english man I know. I for one am glad you joined and always look foward to your posts. As I newbie I am not to proud to admit I am a knucklehead at times but I am trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can. I know the journey will be long but sometimes you have to put all the books away for a little bit and just jump in and give it a try. You may make some mistakes but they provide some of the best learning experiences I have found.

Lester