Potential Sumi Development in Showa

[Mike Snaden]

An interesting thread!

Hi Arthur,

I am in complete agreement with almost everything you say. But, I find the statement about 'Hi coming up' a little strange to be honest. If we are tallking about black fry, as the Sumi disappears, that's one thing, but these aren't Koi that people would have a chance, or take the risk to buy as Tosai. But, if we are talking about Tosai of perhaps 15cm or over, then the Hi plate should be complete well before that stage? If the Koi were to have a Hi pattern, but also to have Hi under the white skin, I would avoid it like the plague. Showa so often have problems with the Hi plate being weak, and also Hi under the skin, that I feel that we should be very critical of buying them with any weakness at all in the Hi plate, as it can go wrong too easily. Colour that is underlying, will usually at best, come up looking like secondary Hi, or Konoko Hi.

Best regards,

Mike.

[Mike Snaden]

How do you all rate this Showa? 26cm Tosai.

[Maurice]

Give us a better picture.
Could be a decent piece of sumi showing near the dorsal, but the pictures rubbish..
Your best mate,
Maurice

[Mike Snaden]

You could be right (maybe), but I don't ahve a better pic!

Mike.

[bekko]

Way, way back, Dick tutored me on culling for showa and utsuri. The first thing was to throw out all the white babies. I did that, but found that the return was very slim when raising black babies as most were found to be magoi at second culling (at least form the spawn I was working with at the time).

Then later, Brady said the "new showa" are from white babies. This would seem to make them sanke, by definition, but Brady convinced me that a koi benched as a showa is a showa, regardless of what color it was at birth. Hence, the possibility of seeing hi under the skin. In a sanke spawn last season I found a showa which was better than any I was able to produce in the black baby exercise.

This would seem to imply that the criteria for selecting showa tosai originating from white babies would be very different from the criteria for selecting tosai showa from black babies. Is this true? Doesn't the former have sumi which is developing while the later have sumi which is disappearing?

If you will entertain an off-topic question here, is there also a "new utsuri" originating from white babies? Finally, are there any long-term implications of abandoning a fundamental difference between showa and sanke, or usturi and bekko?

-steve hopkins

[MikeM]

Steve, those are cutting edge thoughts. First, are you sure that was a Showa among the Sanke? ...Or, was it a Sanke with Sumi on its head, and therefore a poor Sanke?

As the crossing of Sanke and Kohaku into Showa continues, a fundamentally different koi is being created. Showa Hi was different. Now, the "best" Showa are sporting Kohaku Hi. Showa Sumi was different. Now, the "best" Showa have Sanke-type Sumi. The Showa body shape was different. Now, the goal is to put a Sanke frame on the fish. At some point, the fish ceases to be Showa.

I think I disagree with Brady on the idea of a Showa being whatever is benched as Showa ... depends on the training of the benching team. Today, most benching teams seem to go by the presence of Sumi on the head and some Sumi rising from below in a band. Perhaps in time they will look in the mouth for black, and not finding any, declare the fish a hybrid belonging in kawari.

The old attempt to explain Showa as a black koi with white and red patterning never made much sense to me. The Sumi rose through the Shiro, so obviously the fish had a white ground. When I came to understand that Showa are from kuroki, I began to understand Showa. My understanding is still elemental, so I'm not quite ready to debate Brady on whether his New Age Showa are really Showa, or something different. I'm hoping to begin raising one of New Age Showa soon. So, maybe in a couple of years I'll be ready to debate it ... first I have to delve deeper into the essence of Showa, and only the fish can teach that lesson.

[JasonS]

My Jinbei sanke got benched as sanke because I insisted it was a sanke. It got judged as showa because the judges saw the sumi on the nose even though there was no sumi on the fins.

It really wasn't very good in either case. I just brought it so I could show the original owner how it was doing and to support the show.

Short version -- in practice I agree with Brady. The new showa is really bringing the refinements from kohaku and sanke to the showa class.

[bekko]

Mike, it was in fact a poor sanke - as were the best of its siblings :>) This one came complete with motoguro.

There was some discussion somewhere lately about whether bekko would look better if they were not bald. The final word was 'no', but the fact that it was discussed would lead one to suspect that the distinctions between some varieties which are foundations of the present classification system are being blurred. If the only distinction between two of the "big three" varieties is a spot of black at the base of the fins and on the head, then it all seems a little superficial. Losing the blood lines and expertise to breed and select old style showa could be seen as a loss of part of the koi culture. I am not a traditionalist and am not advocating either position - just curious.

-steve hopkins

[Mike Snaden]

It is interesting how 'new' and 'old' Showa have evolved. But, although selecting Showa from newly hatched fry would be basically the task of selecting only black fry (the opposite with 'new' Kindai as mentioned by Bekko), in reality, even at the first cull, the Koi will have a Kohaku pattern, with the Sumi already disappearing. 99% of Koi keepers would never see this, and even in the case of choosing a Koi of 4 or 6 months old, the Hi pattern should be well and truly stabilised by this time. If it weren't, then the Koi would be at best, unstable.

Anyways, below is the Showa that was posted yesterday. This Koi was 26cm as Tosai, and in the second pic was yonsai of 61cm. As Tosai, the beni was very deep red, which resulted in the Koi turning male, as presviouly brought up ny Arthur. At 61cm, the Koi had turned out very well, and with the Sumi being reasonably good, but not wonderful. Sumi quality in Japan (and in my eyes) is everything with Showa. No Sumi quality: no value. However, I think we need to keep things in perspective here, insofar as if you pay perhaps $300 for a Koi, you can't expect too much, although you can still get a lot of fun from the Koi, and still be proud with your achievement a few years down the line. I think that when buying small Koi, you need to think futher down the line of how much 'fun' you had for the money! All things being equal, a higher price, will mean higher expectations. High expectations can often lead to disappointment.

Mike.

[Maurice]

Let's get them together. I didn't know it was this one! Pleased I spotted the jet black scale.

Shame it's not still upand runnning.
Maurice.