To strip or not to strip eggs..?

[ranskye]

haha steve, seems we have the same hormone manufacturer..hcg and ovaprim for me.. works good enough mostly. i use em.
still i find some fish species are just hard.
(though i dont think its needed in general for koi to spawn cause they go pretty easily with good timing and trigger emulation). namely we can mimick it for a koi to get all sexy easy enough, they do however work well to have them do it when we want, if the fish is good enough to start with!!

in the case of this fish you could try an injection and if you do it safely then it should do no long term harm. be prepared to lose the fish though anyway..
by all means make youself aware of hormones and what they do, not everyone should want to start playing round with them for the wrong reasoning. its rare that i use them on koi.

also youd have to ask yourself if you can get it to a good vet that knows what they be doing and back again.
first though i wonder if the fish is really eggbound with last years eggs and these eggs still causing a problem?? maybe there is such a condition OUTSIDE of normal conditions, normally though she would reaborb or push out as discharge any eggs that went too far into the process. how long has she been like this? a fish should only hold onto any eggs over time that are suitable for holding and this isnt where the eggbound term is used.
as mike said, a fast shoudnt hurt..most big fish can go a good while without a feed and it could certainly stop her producing more eggs and make her use her reserves up if she has them.

ive seen once, a fish that wouldnt breed two seasons in a row, a fish that was as fat as a fool and in the end swimming awkward and we let her go into a good pond thinking the worst and she came good, however this wasnt a prize fish and i still thought it was not just eggs but something else.
fish can have swim bladder problem amongst other also. ive cut a few open to find out what made them that way..sometimes a watery gooey mess of blown up swollen kidney and eggs are ok, sometimes eggs are not present at all.
think about these things first and do a check on her eggs. she might not even have eggs to be mating with. hence no mating!

maybe if a fish that has ovulated and gotten real fat within a few days as a result and still not released anything, ussually over time and proper conditions she can come back from this anyway.. but i have stripped them out before to alleviate them. some of those have died anyway... something be wrong there my friend anyway and then ive just worsened it. bad conditioning, bad practises ussually and sometimes very few will even strip out.
theyre fat, its only been two days that they grew to a beachball and still they dont ooze free for very long..
it makes me think it has a whole lot to do with where i got the fish from and what its been under before i tried to breed it.

so i think by now she wont strip real well for you under hormone administration unless shes ok in the egg department anyway.

sometimes it is male not being interested, strong enough or even him spawning early.oops!. it happens!!! MANY THINGS CAN BE NOT RIGHT.
think of what the fish went through on its journey and the answer should be found there.
sometimes the pathway (in the brain of the fish) from the triggers to hormone production gets wrecked or stressors overide.
this can still occur in fish given hormones, i mean to say that if shes real crook and stressed the hormone may not work anyway.
what hormones do is bring them up to spawning state in fast time. the good egg will ripen, ovulate and become "loose" they should spawn so called naturally with a male then but if not they can be stripped...and it requires timing!!!! often a hard fish requiring stripping will have a poor fertilisation rate.
why? probably because the eggs in front where ok and near ready and the ones at the back where a fair way off. probably because the hormone aint magic to beat slack practises.. THINGS NOT BE RIGHT... generally good condition koi will go good anyway hormone or not..
its funny but i will use a hormone if i am in real need of a spawning and things arent looking good for it naturally.

but if shes that sick, still i wouldnt pair her up, and first i would do a check on her eggs, first and foremost, that wont cost you much.
that means knock her out, flip her up, send a tube up her and suck on the end of the tube until you get an egg sample. while your at it you could give her a feel and slight squeeze to see what she has to offer. be gentle to medium strength cause id say sheel give you nothing and thus theres no need to blow her eyes out!.

IF she has proven eggs of decent size and quality to spawn you could use a hormone to spawn thereby reduceing her gut size, make a good male available and have the conditions right also so to spawn naturally, to help her along.. and remember hormone will only work for any eggs that are not too far gone.

anyone from syndel feel free to dicuss these matters further..

[bekko]

You're right. She should be tubed first.


-steve hopkins

[dunkel]

Thanks Aquitori for helping me with this situation with my Kujaku, and thank you everyone for your replies.

I am going to try and find a vet here locally that can do a ultrasound, find out what is going on with her, and hopefully fix the problem whatever it is.

I will try and keep everyone posted on our findings.

Jeff

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by dunkel Thanks Aquitori for helping me with this situation with my Kujaku, and thank you everyone for your replies. I am going to try and find a vet here locally that can do a ultrasound, find out what is going on with her, and hopefully fix the problem whatever it is. I will try and keep everyone posted on our findings. Jeff

Jeff no problem, always remember when in doubt take it to the board ....I hope you got enough opinions here to help your Kujaku out.

[dunkel]

I am going to print this post and bring it with me.

[Maurice]

Has her 'eggy' look happened over a short period, or has she been getting fat with eggs over a long time?

I have treated several which have blown up over a couple of weeks (not dropsy), only the belly area swelled, not the whole of the fish.

It’s not been successful every time, but has saved 50% of treated koi. Left unchecked is a guaranteed failure.

If it has happened over a few weeks, shout and I’ll post more on my findings.

Maurice.

[pomdac]

I have lost a favourite recently from what could have been dropsy or egg retention.(NOT NICE)
I worry constantly about the remaining females and have had so many different oppinions as to how to help them to get rid of the eggs..Anyone got a cast iron method?
Doris

[Nishi8]

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[ranskye]

maybe its like the ones ive seen and cut open and found a big watery and gooey mess. i had put it down to unknown natural causes, not that it happens to old fish by anymeans.so i guess i take it as part and parcel of what i do. i didnt think that was dropsy either but something else.
i dont know how to fix it, no sure fire method, unless of course if its just the eggs which wouldnt be too hard to try correct.

with the problem ive seen with their insides only being blown up and watery, ill just knock em on the head, or if theyre real special id try breed from them first, then again my fish arent worth too much and ive got heaps of em anyway and it mightnt be a bright idea to breed from something that fell to something that you dont know about..

ive seen external tumours on goldfish that only show up in one breed, whether that means anything here could be another story but probabaly be worthy of mention, i used to think it may have come from toxins left in the bottom of the pond (was an old sewerage pond) or maybe even from the power lines, something like luekemia!.
then i noticed that it was one breeding line that had the problem and came up with the theory that it was either being passed down as a genetic ailment which may show up or not, or some problem with the genetic makeup of the fish making it more susceptible to environmental problems than the other breeding line.
it was ussually as they got older when it showed. after ten years many fish had these lumpy tumours, they keep the dogs living beyond theyre life expectancy .

though as for the watery belly..it has never been a big enough concern for me to try overcome that or find out what it is or why it happens,ive only seen it about 5 times out of thousands of fish and never been able to come to any conclusion as to why it happens.
if it happened to a favourate yeh id be a bit upset and then id want to know what to do...
has anyone out there had it more than once amongst a pond and so got a possible cause??.
do you see it rarely as well maurice??

[bekko]

I had a fish that was bloated with fluid not long ago. In its final days, it looked like a giant ryukin goldfish. The bloating took six months to develop and the fish was still eating the day it was finally euthanized. I was expecting to find a huge fatty tumor but it was just fluid and the organs seemed normal. If I had known, I would have tried to drain the fluid first.