Developing Breeder Worthy Koi...Male or Female?

[Akai-San]

I was just contemplating the accepted practice of hobbiest and breeders growing out and developing "female" koi as opposed to "male" koi. I can understand the mystique of developing beautiful "female" koi, but aside from Momotaros GIANT male koi, is there any other breeder with a similar specimen? Can or should male koi be developed to exceed the current accepted standards? Is it possible for male koi to compete in koi shows along thier female counterparts. Not just in the baby or young koi catagories, but how about eventually in the 70cm plus area. With male koi peaking sooner than females is this a good thing or bad thing if the koi can reach giant size in shorter periods and finish out best when still somewhat young. Also, in the dog show world, dogs are judged on a standard and whether male or female, what ever sex that holds closest to the standard can win the blue ribbon. Is this true for Koi shows as well? I'm thinking for koi, maybe TOO MUCH emphasis is put on "the largest" koi. Instead of the best specimen of the varieties presented.

Just wondering if anyone in the koi world has hypothesized that maybe the males genes hold the secret to more consistency in breeding true varieties...food for thought...any insights will be very welcome...

[bekko]

Carl,

I suspect that koi could be bred to produce males that look like the idealized female does today. There's no telling how long that process would take, but one look at some of the goldfish varieties would make you think that just about anything is possible. However, the females from this new bloodline would probably be considered too broad and, as such, would be inferior quality and not fit for the show ring.


One thing that surprises me about the whole male-versus-female issue is why breeders are not using hormones to do sex reversal and turn all of the fry from a spawn into females. You can also cross a normal female to a female which was turned into a male at birth and, in so doing, produce all-female offspring. I has already been done, at least experimentally, in common carp.


-steve

[ranskye]

good discussion, id like to know what peoples thoughts are on what a male brings to the party so to speak in terms of what it gives genetically.
i think thats what your getting at tomc.
i know that some plant breeders have this type of theory but i didnt know it went that way in fish. thats new to me, id be surpised if we are missing the point here though.

i guess somewhere along the line someone found females to be more desirable for their body and they bred using and chose in keeping within that ideal and not strayed into looking for males.. afterall it is harder to compete with the guy down the road showing off a female when the female gives the better shape overall.
want show-want girl.. then after that its simply girl all the way i reckon.

i know i used to unconsiously sell mostly my females first because they look fuller in the belly and as a result healthier. it just turned out in the end that what was left in a cage was mostly male before i noticed what i was doing, i try and stop myself now. i can sell anything of good colours anyway and i wonder if i really want to drive the market anymore than it drives me.

batch females? hmmm.. yep they do that for food fish, in trout i think, triploidy springs to mind also, ive thought of something similar once before when i was considering growing fat belly fantail feeders but then i realised that maybe theyd need more food and result in less per pond or slower to reach suitable market size. i pulled out of that one pretty quick cause id soon lose but for koi maybe theres a point, in japan do they cull out the males?

like fair enough to want a healthy looking fish, healthy looking fish are likely to have healthy looking young in the same conditions too but this "bigger is better" is total bullshit if you ask me, maybe around the urinal it works but theres no way any of the big dumb fish i see are as good a looking specimen as what sits in the mid range of the population.
why so? id say its because there just arent much to choose from amongst the real big ones. take a look at a bell curve and think about it, it is gonna take a long while for there to be a real steady high standard amongst huge sizes for that reason.

anyone reckon that the hugest fish are as pretty to the eye?
like dont you look at the big GC and think well you only won cause your big?
theyre more likely to have more faults overlooked are they not?
wont they be bred from oneday because they are who they are?
is this a concern? or is the market place and peoples wants varied enough for it to have no ill effects. im seeing a lot of emphasis placed on "big".

select breed, select breed, eventually yeah youll get em nice but itll sure take much more time and i wonder what for?. why do we want to go that way?
atleast with size i find things have evolved to a size for a reason..and grace comes into it too.. and we have to ask ourselves if we are selectively breeding for mainly jumbo sizes what are we losing out on in our future pool.
select size, size, size.. then its a case of oh no! wheres our colour and grace gone among others, intelligence, tolerance to water quality, low disolved OXYGEN?
believe it or not but ive seen it before.
im not just talking about taking a genetic and having it fully expressed through the environment and ending up with a big fish,even though i do think we are taking it too far there too. it seems like a wholly grail and we will go mad to reach it.
im mainly talking about choosing the abnormal huge genetic and breeding it and searching through its biggest offspring whilst over looking some basics.
its like "whos got the biggest fish and pond space for one fish?" i ask why are we being driven by this? or is it just me noticing this and everyone else doesent want the biggest fish?
im not seeing the point of it really.

[dick benbow]

in the last year or so I have really thrown myself into the world of bonsai.
There also, the emphasis is on biggerr and bigger specimens. It's a nusance to transport as it takes several to lift and carry.

I feel the same with koi. so much emphasis on big specimens. they are hard to
handle as well. females have reproductive problems including tumors and the
need to be spawned from time to time.

unlike dogs and a show standard, koi sexes are not equal and the female body is the standard so that males will not and do not ( with few exceptions) meet the
criteria.

to me keeping koi is like forming a circle. at the top and in the beginning, we all want to learn to keep them and just flat enjoy them! then as we progress along we want to have and be able to identify all the color varieties. then shows comes along and we want to be competitive. then as we get closer to the end of our career and have had enough of the cliques and politics of contests, we're back full circle
to where we began. learning how to keep and enjoy our friends.

i don't deny anyone the opportunity to linger at any of the stages. What i have learned in the full circle journey is to enjoy the hobby at my own level.
you don't have to have all jumbo females. they all don't have to be show types. they don't all have to be gosanke. Don't adapt someone else's standard. create your own. your standards and expectation will change.

so many times in my smaller classes i have students who want to learn the show standards which i am glad to teach. I insist however that they modify their decision on what they like ( or other family members ) as well. A pond of
show standards that on a few weekends graces the attention of others is a heavy price to pay for such a brief period. Enjoy koi everyday in your backyard. Don't just buy a three step perfect show pattern when you'd really
like the looks of the omoyo. I quess what I'm trying to say is buy koi that appeal to you not someone else or their concept of a good koi .

My ake mae kigoi and i go back over 23 years. She's family. I never did get to show her. I have never seen a better one anyone. Every time I'd stick her in a bag to take to the show she'd bleed so hard from her gills that after two attemps on different years I just let her be. She sure looks out of place ( lol!)
with my pond of Asagi's now. But she reminds me of the past, is now part of the present, and I hope I can keep her for many years in the future. Her name in japanese is the radiant glow of sunset. Probably should change it to grandmother. It's a joy to see her trying to compete for food with the younger ones!

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow in the last year or so I have really thrown myself into the world of bonsai. There also, the emphasis is on biggerr and bigger specimens. It's a nusance to transport as it takes several to lift and carry. I feel the same with koi. so much emphasis on big specimens. they are hard to handle as well. females have reproductive problems including tumors and the need to be spawned from time to time. unlike dogs and a show standard, koi sexes are not equal and the female body is the standard so that males will not and do not ( with few exceptions) meet the criteria. to me keeping koi is like forming a circle. at the top and in the beginning, we all want to learn to keep them and just flat enjoy them! then as we progress along we want to have and be able to identify all the color varieties. then shows comes along and we want to be competitive. then as we get closer to the end of our career and have had enough of the cliques and politics of contests, we're back full circle to where we began. learning how to keep and enjoy our friends. i don't deny anyone the opportunity to linger at any of the stages. What i have learned in the full circle journey is to enjoy the hobby at my own level. you don't have to have all jumbo females. they all don't have to be show types. they don't all have to be gosanke. Don't adapt someone else's standard. create your own. your standards and expectation will change. so many times in my smaller classes i have students who want to learn the show standards which i am glad to teach. I insist however that they modify their decision on what they like ( or other family members ) as well. A pond of show standards that on a few weekends graces the attention of others is a heavy price to pay for such a brief period. Enjoy koi everyday in your backyard. Don't just buy a three step perfect show pattern when you'd really like the looks of the omoyo. I quess what I'm trying to say is buy koi that appeal to you not someone else or their concept of a good koi . My ake mae kigoi and i go back over 23 years. She's family. I never did get to show her. I have never seen a better one anyone. Every time I'd stick her in a bag to take to the show she'd bleed so hard from her gills that after two attemps on different years I just let her be. She sure looks out of place ( lol!) with my pond of Asagi's now. But she reminds me of the past, is now part of the present, and I hope I can keep her for many years in the future. Her name in japanese is the radiant glow of sunset. Probably should change it to grandmother. It's a joy to see her trying to compete for food with the younger ones!

Dick, My wife and I just read this and 100% agree. Well written and timely. I am on burn out mode on koi forums and retiring to a backyard private hobbyist. Only for my family and close friends to enjoy. To this point I too have my first ever koi who survied all of my wrong doings. I am going to take things at my own pace so I can enjoy everystep along the way.

Happy you wrote that and confirms my own thoughts about the hobby and where it has taken me from my backyard to Niigata, Japan. I am not sure you can call that a full circle. But nevertheless I am home in my backyard where I started.

Joe

[Tom C]

Joe, you're truly one of the best guys I have ever met. I do understand where you are. You will be missed by many on the boards. I think I'm in the same boat as you. Next time I'm up your way, I will give you a call and maybe we can do lunch. You know I still owe you one.

Take care!

Tom

[Doug Ward]

Whoelly Chit !
Umm...ditto....
I'll ' keep tabzzzz", but I have a farm to run.
I've accomplished more in 2 months than I have in the 12 months previous..
I'll hopefuly be able to help on KphenForumzzz, if needed, but I'm tired of the BS ..(FFW, political, uzual)

I missed whOrlando due to family schtuff ( much more important)
Hopefully, they'll get me fixed up this week.

Off to bed and up at three.

I'll be in touch.\
Quieter, calmer, and lurking......
Doug
Douglezz
Blammo
Azwhipe.., as it were....

Quote: Originally Posted by keokoi Dick, My wife and I just read this and 100% agree. Well written and timely. I am on burn out mode on koi forums and retiring to a backyard private hobbyist. Only for my family and close friends to enjoy. To this point I too have my first ever koi who survied all of my wrong doings. I am going to take things at my own pace so I can enjoy everystep along the way. Happy you wrote that and confirms my own thoughts about the hobby and where it has taken me from my backyard to Niigata, Japan. I am not sure you can call that a full circle. But nevertheless I am home in my backyard where I started. Joe