Cloud Nine

[koifishgirl]

[quote=bekko]With 14 ponds, what does the guy raise besides koi? What size are the ponds? What is the water source? Is he willing to put money into buying broodstock?

-Steve the size of his ponds are I would say about one half acers each and he raises some goldfish he sell these as bait for fishing , and I am not sure about him wanting to purchase more broodstock, I will be talking with him Saturday to see what all he is wanting to do. I plan on buying some to go with what he has and with what you and other members of the forum have helped me with try and improve his production rates.
You would not believe where he keep his parent koi and has had good luck with them. In a catfish and brim pond a big one and he just feeds the fish and takes a net and throws out and catches his parent koi. I am going to try and get him to put them in another pond without the catfish and see if he will go for this.

The water source is a spring that feeds all the ponds, he does not ferterlize the ponds because he cant seine the pond because of algie growth. Is there something that you can put in the pond to kill the algie before he seines his ponds to make it not so hard to pull the seines? I think most of his pond are around 4 ft deep. I want to talk to him about makeing some of the ponds deeper but he sell most of the koi that he is raiseing at small sizes so the need for large grow out ponds for him has not been a issue. I on the other hand want to grow out some of the koi

This is something that I need to ask we are going to spawn the koi in spawning tanks and I dont know how many sets of parent koi that he has. Would he not need a pond for different spawns if they spawn say a week apart . I am thinking that if we spawn the koi and then turn on batch loose in a mud pond and then a week later we have another spawn we would need another pond. Can you tell me what would be a safe time length to be able to put fry in same pond.

[koifishgirl]

Your right Dick and I would not pass this up if I was 60. There is not a chance here that I would look back even if I was a complete failure at this . The enjoyment that I will get out of this will far exceed any money that I may make. For me this is not work but plain fun and if I went to bed at night and fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow, I would be up at the crack of dawn with a smile on my face and ready for another day of pure pleasure.

[ChrisC]

Quote: Originally Posted by koifishgirl Your right Dick and I would not pass this up if I was 60. There is not a chance here that I would look back even if I was a complete failure at this . The enjoyment that I will get out of this will far exceed any money that I may make. For me this is not work but plain fun and if I went to bed at night and fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow, I would be up at the crack of dawn with a smile on my face and ready for another day of pure pleasure.

That's the way to be, KFG. Good luck.

[bekko]

Keeping the adults with the catfish and bream is OK as long as he can catch them when needed. If you miss with the cast net the first time, it may take a few days to get them to come up for feed again. If the adults are junk, I would leave them there. You should find something smaller and more manageable for better adults as they are collected.

When you say spring-fed, do you mean the water is piped to the ponds from a spring or does it just seep in from the ground? If water is constantly seeping into the ponds and overflowing a standpipe to a creek, it is going to be really hard to maintain a green water bloom and zooplankton. It will also be impossible to dry. Free water is a mixed blessing. Such ponds are notorious for having persistent string algae because you cannot build up the lignin compounds needed to suppress it. You can try pumping down a pond and keeping it pumped down for a week or so, rotenone the trash fish (if any) and spray the algae with Diquat or Rodeo. When everything is dead, refill and fertilize heavily.

If the situation is the way I imagine, you should not deepen the ponds. It will probably make them even harder to manage. Four feet is OK for mud-pond grow-out.

You can stock about 200,000 fry in a half-acre pond. Obviously, this is more than one spawn, but the fewer you stock, the faster they will grow. Mixing spawns always creates some problems. It will be harder to understand how well a particular pairing performs. The greater the age difference, the more cannibalism you will have. At modest stocking densities, you may be able to get by with 10 days of age difference. So, you will have to make some judgment calls. If there are more spawns than there are ponds available, then you will have to lump them.

You need to be thinking about your production and marketing plan. What is the production goal and where are you going to sell the fish? I suspect that you and this guy have different marketing plans in mind. He may want to sell a lot of small junk fish at a low price per piece. You may want to sell a few high-quality fish at a much higher price. This sounds like a good fit, but there will be conflicts too. A least one pond will have to be devoted to tosai and tategoi which means there is less space for making bait. Are you going to be willing to mix a spawn from good Momotaro broodstock with a flock spawn?

In a year, you and this guy are going to know most of the same tricks. At that point, what will be your contribution to the operation? Writing a good contract now will be really tough. Too much is unknown and unpredictable. Go for an agreement about how you will handle things over the next nine months. By winter, you may know what to ask for and what to expect. I think you should keep your original plan going at the same time and go ahead and build the ponds at home. They will not go to waste.



-steve hopkins

[ranskye]

yep, id say give it a go kfg and good for you.
whatever makes you happy. you must feel like i first did when i first got a job on a farm.. like christmas, i was lucky on the second job that i actually got paid more than 2 dollars an hour like i got on the first, a bit dissapointing but anyway the experience was worth it to me.
then you can move on to even better things. progress.
if you dont take a chance the door might be always closed.
the watching how it all worked and learning from someone thats done the hard yards saves plenty. reading from people on here saves time for sure and now you might be able to put it to practise in a way that doesnt involve thousands of litres. i was feeling sorry for you and your high hopes and such small volumes.
whats that you say? clear ponds too.. hehe. whos needing a fertiliser regime now then hey!

youll do some hard hards sure, we still all do. certainly with atleast the hundered or so questions youve asked and had answers to you will save a good year..maybe 5 or 10 if youd closed yourself off from outside knowledge.

if you look at a proper production cycle and how you should manage things and do it straight away you may not deveiate too far from that basic for years. if you learnt the hard way through total trial and error, youd have changed your initial ways ten fold.
for example the guy thats there.. no bloom, leaves the parents to eat.
the culling can come later but i agree, youll get dissapointments sure but dont hesitate on that alone but your not making a million just yet either.
if you dont over do it youll definatley kick the numbers up rather considerably.
take it easy to begin with and dont freak the guy out about contracts just yet and dont tell him everything you know just yet, hold a card or two.
as time goes on you can draw up your agreement.

[ranskye]

you hold the broods at home, that concern over losing your good fish is gone..

he gets more bait production than he had before, he has someone to help harvest and breed, you help grade and sort, you get to put an eye over the higher dollar stuff. release some into one of his ponds, that should be your outcome.. you help him, you get a big pond in return, no questions.. and his thing is his bait..remember that he will likely still make more than you and be happy to have such keen labour, he owns the farm, your helping and it be true he has the ability to push you out at his will..
under such an arrangement id still take some of it home to put in your mud ponds.
you score something even if it doesnt work out for you both in the long term you have something great to show for it.
basically you can help there and get access to a large range of individuals that you would not have had before.
both should be happy in that sort of outcome. congrats.

[koifishgirl]

Steve when I say spring water I am talking about underground water that bubbles up to the top of the ground. He has a very good supply of water and I think this is why his ponds stay so clear. Also the spring start on his property and he does not have fish coming from a branch so he can keep out stray fish. He does buy brim to sell for bait also.

I dont plan on mixing my parent koi and since he has 14 ponds most I think are empty or can be emptyed if need be. Since it is spring the fisherman will be buying the crap out of bait fish so it should not take long to empty a few ponds
He has some type of chimical that he said he was going to put in one of his fry ponds to kill everthing in it so he can put his new fry in their but I am not sure if it will kill the new fry. How long you would have to wait or what. I ask him if he could just drain the pond and he said he could.
I have got one pair of koi coming in this friday and plan to Qt for a while and then see if I can get a spawn from them if not next year. Momotaro Kohuku and I plan on keeping my fry seperate from his and cull and keep the good koi and let him sell the junk koi for bait if he wants
I have all types of marketing ideas running around in my head. Pond builbers, pet shops, newpaper, internet and word of mouth sending out photo album of koi to dealers and so forth. Also going to alot of koi shows in time to get out names out all over.
I dont plan to keep a whole bunch of koi as I just was to keep the best so I dont think I will need over two ponds to do what I want. He like you said sell bait fish but I think in time I might get him to see that he could do better in just koi and goldfish and get rid of the brim. Growth rates are not a big issue for he since he is selling for bait so he can put a larger # of fry into one pond. I think if he keep his ponds full of bait fish he will be happy. That is where he is haveing problems he does not know how to spawn the koi and goldfish so his supply is down from what it should be. I think because he flock spawns and leaves the parents in the pond and does not ferterlize this is why. I think what fry do hatch out most are lost to not enough food for them, plus the fact that he does not dry his fry ponds out and start fresh.

[koifishgirl]

If I cant get a signed aggrement that my parent koi and the few select koi that I want to grow out will go with me if he should want to pull out, then I wont go into this with him. I dont think that will be a problem if we do this from the start. I dont also plan on telling him everthing I know, I dont want him to tell me that he wants to go alone after I teach him everything that I know. Just a little safe guard for me if you know what I mean. I really dont think he is that kind of guy anyway, and I think he will be gratefull for the help and willing to work with me.
I kind of felt sorry for this guy last year when I went to visit, this guy does not even know what types of koi he has and has no idea what sex his parent koi are ore anything, my remark to Jack was when we went to leave is this guy needs me. You dont find people everyday that will work the way I would and love doing it and have the drive that you need to run this sort of operation. I am willing to go above and behond and I think he will be happy to have me around and not have to pay for labor. Also when it comes to koi I cant get enough of imformation, all I can learn and more. It just seams to stick with me easy because of the strong desire and love that I have for these fish.
Steve just looking at the parent koi I think he has fair parent stock you can identify all the parents and he told me they were purchased as show koi. From the way he talked he paid a good deal of money for them. I will try when we pair them up for a spawn to post some pic for all to see and just from looking at the pic maybe you can tell me what you think. If the disk wont keep getting stuck in the camera. You really would not believe the koi he has produce from the mass spawns that he does.


For all and Dick this coming Saturday I will post some pic of the koi that he is getting from the mass spawns. The colors are very good for mass spawns, I was shocked to see what he did have.

[ranskye]

ahhhh, seems we have a new farmer.
hey kfg, whats this about you being 45.. and using KF girl to get us guys to help..i think we might make you change your name to koi fish lady. just foolin.

yep dont play with chemicals you dont know about.
if you can, to drain is the go. thats a better idea.
remember you want to start with water that is clear of all things predatory, you want to create your own lifecycle that suits you better. let a pond succession do that for you. from day 1. not day 50 just minus what a chemical will do. this world has enough active chemical in our waters already.ok.

DRAIN the pond or pump it elsewhere, dry for atleast a week, lime it and fill from the spring source. then fertilise, and release either eggs or free swimming fry. some like to fertilise after a hatching, some before.
some things you have to decide upon what suits you better. there arent many hard and fast rules, only general ones. stick to those and try a variant on it to see what works for you there.
keep the bloom fed, if it drops out, then next time you add more before it would drop out.

he would likely be feeding his fingerlings, after about two weeks you should supplement a commercial diet-fry starter powder to 1mm.
depending on pond food availability first time round you may need to feed earlier. choose a pond nearest to his electricity supplu and add some form of aeration from the beggining. especially from day 8 onwards and especially between 3am to 8am.

theres a lot of this free information already out there for you to get.
many papers on bait production, use some initiative and get hold of them. use it as a guide. spend some internet time checking out for answers on other sites. it will actually save you time when you look for farming information.
get a hatchery publication/ live food production manual.
maybe even one thats for producing algae blooms in prawn ponds.
whatever.. its all rather relevent.
there is a huge way to go before your up an running smoothly and even then there are many many hours to be spent with farming fish.
remember it is still a form of farming. you sound like you might just have the mental stamina to work through it. if thats what you want to do, dont let anyone stop you but dont let your descisions stop yourself either.
like i think mike said " dont put in too much money".
specially not on excess equipment. just pumping fertiliser, earation and food.
might cost yous 2-300 dollars for a half acre pond. thats enough.
least not until you realise the pricing your up against with the big koi fish boys over there.. maybe hes got a local niche he can hold and you can develop one too if you can find good fish. transporting costs, marketing time, it all adds up. theres a reason why great koi are top dollar and its not just becasue theres a lack of farms.
research and implement and remember to have fun in trying to find them good ones.

[koifishgirl]

I just talked to Ronnie today and he has built 3 more fry ponds and are ready for the fry. I cant wait to get my hand on his parent koi this weekend. He has 30 or so parents and has grown out some more that he thinks will be ready to spawn. , it is killing me to have to wait!