The term "Professional" in the koi hobby....

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko A koi dealer is a professional - whether or not it is their sole source of livelihood, whether or not that show a profit at the end of the year, and whether or not they are knowledgable. But, how about someone who imports fish for themselves and buys a few extras to resell to their friends? How about someone who sells a fish to make room in their pond for an upgrade? I agree with B.Scott, its a grey area with no sharp divide and very little guidance. -steve hopkins

But, how about someone who imports fish for themselves and buys a few extras to resell to their friends?

Professional by no means. Hobbyist yes. Nice guy to his friends yes. If the hobbyist breaks even and makes no money then thats cool, but still not a professional.

How about someone who sells a fish to make room in their pond for an upgrade?

Professional by no means. Hobbyist yes.

[Bern]

In the UK the term 'Professional' has two definitions.


1. Learned. Limited to three occupations Law, Human Medicine and Divinity. To be classified as 'learned' the person must possess a doctorate in one of those three disciplines.

2. Rumunerated occupation. The more common definition. It does not infer any superior status, although it benefits from the connotations of the first definition.

Therefore in the UK all dealers are professionals, all hobbyists are amateurs in the 2nd sense.

rgds BERN

[JasonS]

How about thinking about the line as if koi were cars? (...if we only had koi body shops... )

Car salesmen and dealers are professionals but the guy who sells his old truck isn't.

[B.Scott]

Good analogy Jason... so:

"Many koi dealers are like used car salesman. "

I like it. Very apt.

So who cares if they are professional. The word means nothing to me really.

I'm a master plumber and so I guess that qualifies me as a "professional" in that field. Would it surprise you to know that I feel that at least a third of my fellow "professionals" are total D.A.s whom I wouldn't trust to fill a tea kettle? I wonder if the koi hobby might not be even worse?

B.Scott

[erwinsan]

This is what I heard from a very credible source on the subject. Apparently, I Japan the defenition was very specific and limited to "koi professionals are people who sell koi for profit". The U.S. version is "anyone who sells koi and all koi related products and services for profit". (These of course are summarized definitions.)

Here's an exapmple: What about my friend's wife who sells purses with "koi print" as the design or "koi shirts". They were telling me because of these, they could be considered professionals?!? How far to do we 'stretch' the rule???

Does anyone else know the "literal" translation of this rule; straight from Japanese to English. Maybe Brian can shed some light on it.

[JasonS]

The KHA definition is a bit more limited than the 'show' definition. Eventually it comes down to the show committee, or ultimately the show chairman to decide who is in and who is out.

The Japan definition tends to be the rule for shows. Because the show is all about the fish, the rule is all about the fish.

The KHA definition is about $$ and liability. So that one is typically interpreted much wider.

Now here's a problem: backyard breeders with a big backyard. These guys, like Bekko, will tend to have show worthy parent stock and will also tend to sell fish. They may not make any profit from selling fish but they may make some $$. They may also bring their homegrown koi to smaller shows.

What do we do with them? I'm interested in the answer to that one because I may become one of 'them'. So far this isn't an issue because no 'amature' has bred anything that'll compete with the typical import koi. But maybe somebody could?

[Arthur]

A lot of professional dealers do not make PROFIT from selling just koi (they make it from other things like filtration and food).

IMHO a hobbyist seling koi out of their backyard makes more PROFIT than the average dealer, and therefore should be considered a professional as far as shows are concerned.

[luke frisbee]

we all got HO's, mine is...
that since dealers are losing money selling koi, the entry fee for them to enter koi in the shows should be universally waived!

now seriously, If it were "all about the koi" then all the koi that are brought to the show should be entered...I don't think any of the koi are "professionals"?

And what I said still stands. it isn't about our definition of Professional. The term and definition "professional" is given to those people (that are not friends with the "Head guy", or are not trying to win the prize) that have just a little more of an advantage than the guy making the calls at his how where he or his buddies wants to win in an attempt to shift the "rule" at the show so he or his buddies can win.

the Competition is about the people.

Lets quit giving trophies or mentioning who owns what koi at koi shows (or on messageboards) and see how many koi are brought?

Koi Competitions openly allow the Blatant buying of koi trophies by any non-professional. Who wins that trophy? THE DEALER OR BREEDER. The "owner" just bought the right to pick it up and keep it for him.

Plain and easier to enforce....Allow any healthy koi in any show...establish a "koiKeeper" class for people that enjoy showing what they can raise. The KK trophy will not be the prestigious (and often malaligned) GC...although it can be considered for such.

Thing is the shows need to be about the koi ...let em all in...or about the husbandry....let em in if they can vouch for keeping it for a few months prior to the show.

[kiky]

To me, there are two description of being 'professional'.

Anyone who makes money out of koi (and things related to) is a professional. Mind you he may, and may not be that knowledgeable, as B Scott said.

But anyone who is very knowledgeable, though not making money out of his expertise, can also be a professional.

Generally speaking, it applies not only to our koi world, but to any other field as well.

[philip]

Anyone who is employed by a koi dealer (fish or product sales) or anyone selling fish for a profit (if it is only a couple to friends or 100's) is a professional and should not be allowed to compete in amateur competitions. No exceptions. Items with koi on them (purses, plates,etc.) are not koi products (food, liners, pumps, etc.). As a hobbiest, you are allowed to cull your pond occassionally, and sell your culls (usually at great loss) as long as you are stating that is what you are doing. You cannot cull your pond every month.