The term "Professional" in the koi hobby....

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by philip Anyone who is employed by a koi dealer (fish or product sales) or anyone selling fish for a profit (if it is only a couple to friends or 100's) is a professional and should not be allowed to compete in amateur competitions. No exceptions. Items with koi on them (purses, plates,etc.) are not koi products (food, liners, pumps, etc.). As a hobbiest, you are allowed to cull your pond occassionally, and sell your culls (usually at great loss) as long as you are stating that is what you are doing. You cannot cull your pond every month.

Cool insight. I think for sure on this board alone there are far more people as hobbyist that know more than dealers....To me I wouldn't call a dealer who has been in the business for less than 5 years a professional, especially if he/she doesn't know much about the fish he/she sells....

[Bob Winkler]

Interesting discussion. I am interested in opinions on this one, a slight "offshoot" of what has been already presented.


A Person goes to Japan and brings koi home often. Has a nice, large quarantine pond for their koi. Knowledgeable and a "proven" eye for picking out koi, proven in koi shows. Has friends who give them money to pick out a koi for them and quarantine it/them for 6 months. Not meant as a profit making enterprise, in fact lost a significant amount the first time, due to unforeseen increased utility and "medication" bills, not to mention the increased time, effort, and "stomach lining" from worry, spent with each koi. So a "guestimate" $ was collected when the fish money was given (before the Japan trips) in the years afterward to try and cover that amount. Sometimes it was not enough, sometimes more than enough. But no money was ever asked for (or returned), additionally to the "prepaid" sum, in any case. The end result was that the final price paid in the US was roughly half what they would have paid retail. And some nice koi were brought back that might otherwise not have been available.

What thinks the board? Professional? Not Professional? B4 anyone gets any ideas, this isn't about me specifically, but about a friend who I have helped sometimes. My opinion is that they are not a professional.

[MikeM]

I concur, Bob. If no profit motive, then it is just a hobbyist doing good things for other hobbyists. It's what should be encouraged in the hobby.

[philip]

Aquitori,
You are so right on that "I think for sure on this board alone there are far more people as hobbyist that know more than dealers". I am using the term to cover the amateur/professional application of shows. From a general use of the term as a business, I think it still applies in that professionals are paid for their services. In Bob's scenario, that is a little more complicated. If somehow it can be determined for sure that the person going to pick koi in Japan is doing so as a favor for friends, then no harm. However, if this person is 'marking' the price up to make a profit, then he is a dealer. If he is just using a general amount for shipping costs, QT housing, food, medicine, then I would say no if it is within reason. It is usually not too hard to draw the line between the two. There are many who compete/declare themselves as amateurs who are backyard breeders or are employees of dealers or whose spouses are in the koi business. The amateurs have to publicly protest this at shows to get it to stop.

[James P]

Very easy--- the center of the hobby is ZNA. This is the oldest and most respected organization in the world. It is also the organization that created THE rules that all other countries’ koi organizations adopt or modified. These are historical facts.

The ZNA, seeing the corruption that flowed from an ambivalent world of where quasi dealers and semi hobbyists were emerging,, created the concept of an amateur and a professional. This became part of the ZNA rule book known in Japan as the "Orange book". ZNA in America, has adapted as close to the original wording as possible for another culture and another hobby evolution.

A professional is one that raises and/or sells fish for profit.

This is confusing to the casual observer because the rules are different for ZNA officers, judges and exhibitors. A dealer of ANY koi related product can not be an officer of ZNA. But can be a member. They can not be a voting member however. A true koi professional is an ally and advisor of the amateur . Never a competitor in show or an influence in amateur koi politics.

The rule in America regarding professionals has been made clear with a 2003 vote making all those that sell koi and all their family members and employees ineligible to compete directly with amateurs and therefore must enter a show as a professional in the dealer division.

MAKC’s Koi America will have a serious dealer division this year at Koi America. There will be a full fledged Grand Champion, Reserve , Best size etc. This winner will be featured and promoted in several articles from around the world. If you have a favorite dealer and he can ‘hang’ with the very best in America- please have him contact me so that we can enter his best koi in the competition for GC of the dealer division in this national show..

JR

[aquitori]

JR there are only 2 dealers I know who can compete in this show, but I think conditioning would be a factor and most of the dealers I know still have the fish in Japan. But it would be interesting to see big time hobbyist go against dealer fish.

[James P]

Nope, not interesting at all. Dealers and the Shinkokai system have a HUGE advantage over amateurs. For one, a dealer can get fish on consignment. Second they can conspire with a farmer to enter fish and if it wins, there is one price and if they don't there is another. A farmer can subsidize a dealer so that his reputation is enhanced through the winning of a show where he is not currently importing. A dealer can pick from three hundred fish he had sent in or picked through on a dozen buying trips. A dealer can WRITE off the cost of the fish against his taxes! A dealer can have a winning fish brought in on 'credits' for commissions he is owed by a breeder. There are more tricks and gimmicks associated with dealers and koi shows than you can imagine. No amateur can beat a serious dealer/ breeder combination if they want to win-

This is the wisdom that created Shinkokai and ZNA in Japan in the first place. We must be willing to learn from history or be doomed to repeat it. JR

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by philip Anyone who is employed by a koi dealer (fish or product sales) or anyone selling fish for a profit (if it is only a couple to friends or 100's) is a professional and should not be allowed to compete in amateur competitions. No exceptions. Items with koi on them (purses, plates,etc.) are not koi products (food, liners, pumps, etc.). As a hobbiest, you are allowed to cull your pond occassionally, and sell your culls (usually at great loss) as long as you are stating that is what you are doing. You cannot cull your pond every month.

Jimeny! Why Phillip you've got it all figured out...just a few questions...
So If I don't install the UV I won at the raffle because my old one is working great, and I sell it to a friend for 10 bucks (so I actually make a profit!) I am not allowed to show koi any longer? Right?

And if i cull my pond every five weeks (instead of every month) is that occassionaly enough to still allow me to show koi?

And by culling my pond, is there a limit to the number of koi i can cull "occassionaly"?

and when I figure out how much I can charge for the "culls" which I must sell at a loss...what is the formula? Do I get to include the food it ate, and a % of the water and Electric bill, and depreciation of the pond equipment and what Is my time worth anyway? and when i figure in "my time" do i have to figure it in as my regular job wage, or minimum wage, or if i am selling my Sakai Culls do i factor the time spent on them as Sakai time?

And is being a promoter of a particular breeder or dealer qualify as a professional? Seems like i see more "unfair advantage" by hobbyists that freely praise and show koi from certain dealers. And those dealers understand the advantage of having their koi shown so they "assist" the hobbyist in getting better koi at better prices. So UNFAIR! UNFAIR!

Yet if i work at petsmart I can't show koi? What about working at the feed store that sells Mazuri?

And let me get this right...oh never mind i've made my point

PLAIN AND SIMPLE RULE: IF IT IS A KOI AND YOU WANT TO ENTER IT IN THE SHOW AND YOU PAY THE FEE, AND THE FISH AIN'T SICK, IT IS IN THE SHOW.
That rule is easily enforceable. And not negotiable by the enforcer.

Now if you want to get a trophy, Contact the Chairperson they can tell you where they got the ones for the show.

[philip]

Didn't know that there was a board that you weren't banned from Luke. No worries, no one wants any of your fish no matter how cheap.

[ChrisC]

Quote: Originally Posted by JR No amateur can beat a serious dealer/ breeder combination if they want to win-

I suppose a dealer/breeder combo would be unbeatable, but would dealers really dare do this much?

In shows where dealers are allowed in the general category, a dealer who takes GC away from a hobbyist is resented not only by the hobbyist in question, but many who watched the proceedings. I'd say that's bad for business over the longer term, even if the dealer can sell the fish in question.

No?