Another deviation from the "Definition of Pro" thread

[bekko]

I hear you Luke and understand your point of view. I agree with you until I try to imagine what the alternative would be. If you do not allow a hobbyist to show a fish straight from the breeder, then where do you draw the line? Does it have to be in your own pond for a day, week, month, year? It all becomes very arbitrary and completely un-enforceable.

I have never been to a koi show, but would like to. Obviously, I have never entered a koi show, but I would like to do that too. The only thing I would have to enter would be something that I grew from scratch and it is unlikely that my best fish would stand a chance against even a mediocre fish from Japan. Trouble is, I would not be allowed to enter since I sell off the junk koi to pay the feed and electric bill for the ponds and am, therefore, a professional.

Personally, I think that the show should accept anyone who shows up with a fish and an entry fee - hobbyist, professional, ringer, home-made, whatever. They seem to have a million categories as it is, so it would not be a big deal to have hobbyist and pro classes. If the show is big enough, they can have the "fish which has been in a hobbyist's pond for over a year" class, and on and on. The show can buy trophies for a few bucks each so it doesn't add significantly to the cost to have everyone walk away with an award. The bigger the show, the better the show. The better the show, the more newcomers you can sucker into the hobby. Everyone's a winner.

-steve hopkins

[luke frisbee]

Steve I am with you ...

the Rule:
Fish can be shown by anyone bringing them to the show from their personal pond.
You just have to pull up and get the koi outta your car/truck and sign a sheet right there saying that the koi you brought came for your pond.

Another good way to keep as many koi as possible in the show would be to allow 2 groups....
1)Fish coming from the homes of koi people
2)All other fish (this could include all the professional cared for fish that were purchased previous and during the show, which could be a fun trophy)

And the "Chairperson" would never have to stop someone at the door from showing their fish, the fish would just be "reassigned" to the other grouping.

The GC down through the "Best in class and size" would still be "open" categories.
Personally i would be very happy winning the "best in Kohaku by a hobbyist", and there would be alot of times where a Hobbyist would pull off the upset.

[James P]

You know, I think baseball should have the base runners run clockwise instead of counter clock wise. I don't play the game or actually go to any sporting event like this but I have watched it on TV. And to my way of thinking it would be better if the runner went the other way when they hit the ball. And while we're at it, maybe include someone from the stands to play in each home game to even up the odds. I think this would be seen as more fair and much more sportsman like and bring more people out to the games? You could have ten spectators sign up when they got to the ball park and the winner would be picked from a hat. That would be fairer than allowing these cuban players who swim over here to play the very first year they get here. Or you could let the cuban swimmer play but then you would have to have two spectators on the team- as a rule, I mean- THAT would be the most fair. And that way, someone would always be able to run the bases clockwise that wasn't trained all their lives to run the bases. Yea, that is definitely how baseball should be played---- and don't get me started on 'glow in the dark, uniforms! THAT is the future of night baseball

Arm chair Jim

[luke frisbee]

JR,
Those are all good ideas, go to a baseball webpage and discuss them with your peers.
You continue to accept the status quo, even though it was developed without the interest of those that enjoy koi to the point that they will actually raise them to show them.
but before you go let me give you a little something about the Sport you've taken up....As I recall last year in Baseball steroid use was considered OK by the people that made the rules. But I think they have actually changed that rule so players that don't do things unsportsman-like can gain an unfair advantage....but Big Pocket Steinbrenner sure is upset that he bought a 123 million dollar Steroid stuffed Giambi and now his baseball player is suffering at the plate because he can't use 'roids any longer.

Point is:
Just cuz it is a rule and has been a rule it does not make it a legitimate way to decide how it is determined who can show fish and who can not.

[James P]

Luke, what can I say? There are about 4000 members around the world who like and accept the current rules. If you are an amateur and a member you can show fish. It doesn't matter if the purchase was a year ago or an hour ago. It is about the fish competing, who owns it or who cared for it is incidental. Unless it is a dealer, as this puts the shows credibility in jeopardy.

It is a nice image to see the koi show as a 4-H type event, but it simply isn’t that same kind of animal exhibition. As I said, koi are the ultimate cut flower. They have a time line- improve, peak, hold, decline. The idea of a koi show is to only bring koi that are peaking or holding! In other words a finished animal in its prime. IF you buy it or grow it doesn’t matter. Except in the negative. Meaning, if you cared for it poorly, it will work against you. This includes the wealthy know-nothing that ruins a good koi in a matter of months and also the hobbyist who tries hard to finish a koi but due to poor water conditions or lack of skills, also ruins a koi. In that regard it is an even playing field.

Now let’s play ball !!! ( sorry wrong message board)

[Bob Winkler]

LOL, enjoyed the baseball analogies.. and good points....

[luke frisbee]

JR,
Puleeze...a show with just finished koi....here in the states we could hold the shows in the 7-11 parking lot if only finished koi were shown....

And noone has given me a good reason for saying...it is all about the koi competing, BUT the dealers can't compete....so if it is all about the koi competing why the condition against dealers? and if dealers can't then why can dealers sell koi during the show and have them entered?
if dealers harm themselves by showing koi then they won't.

And your analogy concerning baseball...well thank ya good buddy. I couldn't have chosen a better example of why rules need to be changed. Not rules about the game, but rules about how shady the rules are concerning who can play.
In a "hobbyist only" show, Recently acquired or dealer/breeder-kept koi are the Steroid factor Koi and should be eliminated, or all the Steroid koi should be allowed in.

[James P]

Yep, finished koi- that is the point of a koi show- to enter excellent examples of the 13 varieties. When you go to a dog show you will notice the owner will clean, trim, preen and otherwise ‘make ready’ the entry. Well it’s a little hard to wash and groom a koi! But you can improve the color, improve the sheen and like the coffee commercial- no koi should be shown before it’s time.

In Japan this is almost a given. We are not as sophisticated here in the west, but we can strive to get closer to the norm as it exists in Japan. They have been at it a lot longer than we have. And we do have some shows around the country that field some awesome examples in pretty good numbers in any given year.

Luke, if you had been around koi shows longer , you would have known that pre-KHV and pre- English style shows, people did indeed buy koi from the dealers ON the day of a koi show! This was considered a ‘friendly’ gesture to show support for the dealers and support for your local club or sister club. This would help get the entry numbers up and also give a causal visitor a sense of being in the action and having a ‘ dog’ in the race! I used to attend the Southern California ZNA show and would always buy a few small kohaku from Andy Moo or other dealers and enter them the morning of the show. It was a good test of my eye and my learning, as I picked , what I thought to be, a few good examples and got to see how they did in the show. At the banquet that night, I would learn from the judges comments why my fish was first or second place or why some other fish surpassed mine. On Sunday I would donate the two fish for the club’s raffle. That was a lot of fun. I’m sure that at least one of those shows a high ender I know flew in a killer fish that won the show at least one of those years. I thought it was great! That some one would spend that kind of money and enhance the show by bringing in a world class gosanke that many had only seen in picture books until that day. Many a visitor was inspired to build a pond the day they saw those jumbo’s competing.



So to bring it all home—

The koi show is an amateur event. It was created for learning and for club members to have a good time through friendly competition. It is also an opportunity for koi kichi to get together and talk about their koi. The judging itself is a ranking of those entries based on how close they are to the ideal. It is pure in intent and motives. It does not matter who owns them or when they bought them. Its all about amateurs and club members putting on an event for their own enjoyment.

The dealer issue is separate of course and remains in force so that the purity of the process is not corrupted by business motives. Sales is sales. And kinda vulgar compared to the stuff I’m talking about here when I attempt to explain the goals and motivations to you surrounding an amateur show. Unfortunately most koi business is often about ‘monkey business’ and the integrity of the event is more important than the sale. Its pretty much that simple.

[ChrisC]

Quote: Originally Posted by JR ...pre-KHV and pre- English style shows, people did indeed buy koi from the dealers ON the day of a koi show! This was considered a ‘friendly’ gesture to show support for the dealers and support for your local club or sister club. This would help get the entry numbers up and also give a causal visitor a sense of being in the action and having a ‘ dog’ in the race!

In the show I am co-chairing this year, I realized that our Baby Grand Champion has a size limit of six inches. I think that is a remnant from the days you are alluding to, JR. You had to have bought this fish very shortly before the show in order to compete in this class. I shudder to think of these fish, today, going directly into showtanks!

We are rethinking this limit now to encourage appropriate quarantine procedures for newly purchased fish. Or we will keep it small and show them in plastic bags on the ground like they do now at the All Japan Show.

[James P]

Chris, the small size cutoff in competition has always been based on the time of year the show takes place. In other words, if you have show in slate spring you are going to have pretty some small fish, if the show is in the autumn the youngest koi are naturally bigger. So these is nothing wrong with sliding sizes on the little guys. You're just doing it for a different reason.
Times have definitely changed and we have to adapt, so I wish you luck as we all try and figure this 'brave new world' out!

JR