Shows - New Award????

[mrbradleybradley]

Hi

In the past, shows were about the variety. You could look into a tub full of Kohakus and be able to compare and appreciate the variety.

Now, I can look into a tub and be able to appreciate the owner and see -

The selection skill

The husbandry skill

If they are bred, the genetics and culling skill.

How much the shows have evolved!

At the recent Australian show the usual awards went to variety winners. In my opinion, I would like to see the awards now include something to recognise the owners skill. What do you think? Any suggestions on how this might be done?

Bradley
Australian Koi Forum

[MikeM]

This is a different approach to the perennial question about what a koi show is about.... the koi or the owners. I do not believe there is a truly fair way to award husbandry skills. For example, if Koikeeper A raises a grand Sakai nisai to be as good as it looked like it could become, and Koikeeper B raises a scrawny pond mutt tosai to be far better than anyone could have thought possible, which is more deserving of recognition? ...How do you know where they started? If you do not know what the koikeeper started with, then you are simply judging the koi.

Grow-out contests in which everyone gets a young fish from the same breeder and come back in a year to show them are a lot of fun. It might seem a way to judge husbandry on a level playing field, but it is not. There is tremendous genetic variation in 20 tosai as to future size potential, color quality, etc., etc. And what is the guideline? What if I grow my tosai to be the biggest, and a friend grows his to have the best Hi? What if my big mediocre-looking one is exactly what it should be, because it should not have its colors come together until year 4, while the one with great color has been made to peak too soon?

Perhaps take a "scientific" approach with a formula to give weight to how each person's koi placed in all categories... a type of sweepstakes award. Then divide by the number of entries each person had ... so, a person with 10 entries that all placed 3rd in their classes will win over the person who brought 5 entries, two of which were show stopping magnificent, but 3 of which placed 21st, 22nd and 23rd in the Kohaku class (which had 100 entries). ....never ending arguments, I'm sure.

I think you'll do best to stick to judging the koi. And to recognize husbandry, make a point on a personal level to tell someone that you think they did a great job raising a particular koi. That can mean a lot.

[Mike Mazur]

I think the judging could be broken down to divisions, several factors being length of time of ownership, simply owning agrand koi that just was purchased from a huge mudpond and taken to the show is very different than a person who had a fish from its first year, now 28 inches long and living the entire time in the backyard pond of the owner.


I am in a number of orchid societies and at the shows there are divisions, greenhouse grown, windowsill grown, and a division for grown under lights. This evens up the competition to a fainess level for all competing. We haven't licked the problem of "purchased for the show" yet but are working on it as this criteria requires the highest level of honesty. All 3 divisions get their own show area so as to be judged alongside equals. The final best in show item can come from any division.

I think havin this kind of division would benefit the hobby as to give the newer competitors a chance with an added benenfit to the newcomers.


As for my choice of hobbies I don't think I could have picked two more expenise and yet so tied to water quality.

[Brian]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Grow-out contests in which everyone gets a young fish from the same breeder and come back in a year to show them are a lot of fun. It might seem a way to judge husbandry on a level playing field, but it is not. There is tremendous genetic variation in 20 tosai as to future size potential, color quality, etc., etc.

Hi Mike,

They already have these in Japan, and they're known as "shiiku" contests.

[dinh]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM This is a different approach to the perennial question about what a koi show is about.... the koi or the owners. I do not believe there is a truly fair way to award husbandry skills. For example, if Koikeeper A raises a grand Sakai nisai to be as good as it looked like it could become, and Koikeeper B raises a scrawny pond mutt tosai to be far better than anyone could have thought possible, which is more deserving of recognition? ...How do you know where they started? If you do not know what the koikeeper started with, then you are simply judging the koi. Grow-out contests in which everyone gets a young fish from the same breeder and come back in a year to show them are a lot of fun. It might seem a way to judge husbandry on a level playing field, but it is not. There is tremendous genetic variation in 20 tosai as to future size potential, color quality, etc., etc. And what is the guideline? What if I grow my tosai to be the biggest, and a friend grows his to have the best Hi? What if my big mediocre-looking one is exactly what it should be, because it should not have its colors come together until year 4, while the one with great color has been made to peak too soon? Perhaps take a "scientific" approach with a formula to give weight to how each person's koi placed in all categories... a type of sweepstakes award. Then divide by the number of entries each person had ... so, a person with 10 entries that all placed 3rd in their classes will win over the person who brought 5 entries, two of which were show stopping magnificent, but 3 of which placed 21st, 22nd and 23rd in the Kohaku class (which had 100 entries). ....never ending arguments, I'm sure. I think you'll do best to stick to judging the koi. And to recognize husbandry, make a point on a personal level to tell someone that you think they did a great job raising a particular koi. That can mean a lot.

Second motion to Mike's points.
Anyway, a local dealer (Champion Koi) here in northern Cal already has "Raising Contests". Last year they selected 50 best tategoi tosai from Murudo and come back this year for tategoi raising contests.
This year they selected hundreds of tosai from many breeders such as Sakuma, Isa, Ogawa, Ogata etc.. It was fun.

--Dinh

[aquitori]

When we talk about husbandary skills we talk about bringing a fish year after year to the same show to win starting from baby grand all the way to grand champion, now that would be great. We should give honor to those with a shallow pocket than those with deeper pockets, who can by a fish show ready...

[Bob Winkler]

Many shows have a "Best Tank" award, which rewards, kind of, the husbandry skills of the koi keeper. The grow out awards, year after year with the same koi, are intrigueing. Judging by some of these contests as reported on other boards, just keepingthem alive year after year might be an accomplishment.. Wish it werent so

[mrbradleybradley]

Here is a great oppurtunity to recognise that keeping koi is more than mastering the art of maximising a kois genetics.

Certainly it is a lot harder to set criteria that recognises ownership rahter than variety. But, I expect and predict that this will become an new and evolving feature of shows. It has already begun with grow out contests and best tank type awards. I have seen awards in "best bred" type shows, where you bring along a dozen or so of your best culls.

In Australia, where koi are not imports, these skills are informally recognised. With english style shows, an oppurtunity exists to add-on value to how and why a show is put together.

I personally do not take my koi to a show in order to win a variety prize. I take them to honor koi appreciation.

Bradley

[luke frisbee]

I really don't have an opinion...yeah right.
Can we take a baby step, and just require the fish to actually come from the pond of the owner to the show with the owner in tow.
And quit having koi bought at the show entered in the hobbyist arena; Or entrants trucked in by a dealer after the "owner" bought it without ever seeing it?
let's take that one small step.

Of course that would close a lucrative loophole that Dealers have been able to keep open simply for greed. And perpetuated by "hobbyists" that impulsively buy status.

I watched a person at CFKS search for a koi in the vendor's tanks simply to enter it in the show, because they believed there weren't any entered in that variety/size. Yet I am sure if asked, the person would have explained they were "doing it for the good of the show".

And if it is about the koi....why trophies...why not shrimp? or a trip to some faraway, lightly populated,exotic mud pond? Sure mention who owns the fish...but a trophy? Who you kidding? It's about the koi?

But first get this one by the dealers and trophy buyers....
"Koi entered must have been in the immediate possesion of the person entering said koi and these koi must be transported to the show from their home or property, in the possession of that person".

NOTE, I didn't say they had to touch it, or that they had to know what variety it is, but that they have to at least be with the guy they are paying to come by the estate and prepares and transports their fish.

[aquitori]

How about cash reward or sponsore ship?