Injection doses

[l113892]

I've never seen a koi die from use of an antibiotic. I've always used two antibiotics in combo so that you jump on the aromonas immediately and hit it hard. Unless one has performed a C&A test, I would always hit with both Azactam and Amikacin or whatever combo is in vogue in your area. I've seen hundreds of koi receive antibiotics.

Mike Pfeffer

[marco]

Hi Erwinsan, just took this tread today because I had a lot af work this week.

When you use two or more antibiotics together there are different kind of association:
- some antibiotics are synergics, that mean that one increase the power of the other (like if you count 1+1=3), you normaly use that kind of association
- some are antagonist, one decrease the action of the other (like if you count 1+1=0), never use that association
- some are indipendent, each antibiotics working alone (1+1=2)

You also have two kind of antibiotics, bactericide (that kill bactery) and bacteriostatic (that doesn't aloww the bactery to multiplicate) and you should never use antibiotics of different familly together.

Then you have antibiotics active again gram+ or again gram- and also again both.

And to finish, when you use different antibiotics, if they are eliminate by the same way (kidney for example for most of them) you increase the toxicity and you can kill your fish.

In conclusion if you use an antibiotic like Baytril or Nuflor, they treat both Gram - and +, you normaly don't need to associate them to an other.

But the best way to do is to begin with only antibiotic which treat gram+ and -, and ask an antibiogram to a laboratory in case the antibiotic doesn't work, so you will have the perfect antibiotic for the germ responsable of your problem.

Good luck
Marco

Quote: Originally Posted by erwinsan My undserstanding was, as long as the medicines are for different bacteria strains such as gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria, then it's ok to use different medications at the same time. How about some KHA input.

[marco]

Sorry to tell you that I have already seen, dogs, cat, calves, fishes killed by antibiotics used in a wrong way, bad association or bad concentration.

Antibiotics can have a big toxicity for kidney, lever and some times provoque some cardiac damage. Just loock at the notice when you use them for you, you'll be affraid..
Don't use them like peper and salt when you'r koocking.
Regards, Marco

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 I've never seen a koi die from use of an antibiotic. I've always used two antibiotics in combo so that you jump on the aromonas immediately and hit it hard. Unless one has performed a C&A test, I would always hit with both Azactam and Amikacin or whatever combo is in vogue in your area. I've seen hundreds of koi receive antibiotics. Mike Pfeffer

[l113892]

My point was that I have never injected a fish and killed it. All the other cautions Marco mentions are correct.

I disagree with Marco's math 1 + 1 = 3. Basically all antibiotics target specific strains of aeromonas(salmonicida, caviae, sobria, veronii, hydrophilila, etc.) or pseudomonas. If you have a culture and sensitivity test performed, you can find out which injectible would have the best success rate for the particular strain of aeromonas or pseudo. that you are dealing with. Most won't wait for C&S test and will choose a broad spectrum antibiotic and combine it with another broad spectrum antibiotic. Antibiotics such as Amikacin and Gentamicin present the potential for liver damage so you have to be conservation/careful with those.

Mike Pfeffer

[TategoiKohaku]

Hi marco,
I strongly agree with you. Those antibiotics are good for clearing aromonas or pseudo, but they are very toxic to kidney and liver. Therefore, we try use other methods as much as we can unless it's really needed.
KN

[marco]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 My point was that I have never injected a fish and killed it. All the other cautions Marco mentions are correct. I disagree with Marco's math 1 + 1 = 3. Basically all antibiotics target specific strains of aeromonas(salmonicida, caviae, sobria, veronii, hydrophilila, etc.) or pseudomonas. If you have a culture and sensitivity test performed, you can find out which injectible would have the best success rate for the particular strain of aeromonas or pseudo. that you are dealing with. Most won't wait for C&S test and will choose a broad spectrum antibiotic and combine it with another broad spectrum antibiotic. Antibiotics such as Amikacin and Gentamicin present the potential for liver damage so you have to be conservation/careful with those. Mike Pfeffer

Hi Mike, I'm just coming back from a long tourism weekend and I just saw your reply.
The sinergy in antibiotic is not my invention, it is the base of
antibiotherapy .
Even if you treat aeromonas and pseudomonas with antibiotics known as working agains those germs, once you have an infection, some others germ take their chance because the imunity is low and that's why it is somethimes necessary to use two or more antibiotics together.
And of course it is not because you never had a problem that you will never have it in future.