A way to check for KHV?!?!

[Brutuscz]

In the aftermath of my huge fish losses, I am wondering what to do with my 3 survivors. I have one 4 inch goshiki and 2 shubunkins that were born in my pond 4 years ago. I have no intention of euthinizing them. They are currently in a 500gal kiddie pool and look fine. Since a gill swab is pretty unreliable, I had another idea. I would take a cheap, but healthy, control koi and place him in with them. If he is still alive and well in a month...then it probably wasn't KHV. My fish had many secondary infections during everything...but I was never sure if KHV started the whole problem. I saw green fungus on open sores and a lot of flashing. These 3 fish have been treated with anti-fluke..and have malachite green with formalin in their current tank. None of them are flashing or anything. Let me know what you think of my idea for using a control fish...If they are not KHV carriers, I would like to return them to my pond eventually. Thanks again for the help!!

[Ruth Rice]

If I highly suspected KHV I would put them down and disinfect the whole system with chlorox. You do know that survivors are known to pass it on at a later date - correct? I don't think the shubs would catch it any way. This virus is temperature sensitive and if your water is warm enough the disease wouldn't break. Last year some people lost a lot of fish but kept the survivors. The survivors looked healthy so they put new fish in with them later last fall and the new ones didn't get sick. When the water warmed this year they started dying again.

[bekko]

Listen to Ruth. You should arrange to send that surviving koi to Univ. Georgia - or wherever they do the KHV PCR diagnosis. The goldfish are not supposed to catch it, but I would get rid of them anyway. They haven't been studied enough to insure that they cannot carry the virus. Keeping those fish around is just asking for trouble. Read some of the various board archives and you will find that people who keep KHV survivors are not highly regarded by other hobbyists.
-stevehopkin

[Jules]

If you decide to keep the koi and the goldfish/shubumkins and you restock your pool with more koi you will be happy again but in the back of your mind allways woundering "will it won't it raise it's head?" If you uthinase the fish at this stage and disinfect you will have 99% piece of mind the 1% will be have I cleaned the whole pool? I wish you all the best what ever you choose.

Jules

[jacovors]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jules If you decide to keep the koi and the goldfish/shubumkins and you restock your pool with more koi you will be happy again but in the back of your mind allways woundering "will it won't it raise it's head?" Jules

It is the same with the suggestion here that if you remove all the koi from the pond the virus will die after 24 hours without a host to support it.
I think I too would never sleep soundly after that.

[marco]

Bekko idea of making a PCR test is on my opiniun the best solution. Maybe you don't need to send them on Georgia university. Just phone them to ask what they need to do the test, maybe you can just send them what they need (PCR test can be made with blood, escrement and some time just with a hear coton stick that you pass in the mouth). If it is not too complicate you might be abble to do it yourself. Usualy they send the material you need to do the test.

The other solution would be to inject the suspected fish with dexamethasone (once a day for three day) to take the imunity down, so the virus could come out and the fish will show if he is carrying the KHV. To do that you must be sure that no other sickness are not there and that your water conditions are perfect.
If is carrying KHV he will probably die. So this way of doing is not so elegant.

Good luck and let us know what Georgia unisversity propose you.

Marco

[greg]

Here is a thought.

The advice after KHV is to empty pond and clean thoroughly with a bacterial disinfectant.

But,

What about your filter media?? - keep or replace??

All the pump, UV, heater and pipework internals - flush???

Thoughts,

[MikeM]

Greg: Everything needs to be sterilized and start anew. In laboratory conditions, the KHV virus has not been able to survive without a host for more than 24 hours. But there are insufficient studies to know what the virus can do in a pond environment.

Brutuscz: It was not clear to me why KHV was suspected as the source of your problem. It may have been, but the symptoms described along the way were consistent with other possibilities. I would want to trace back to the source of the fish added to your pond to determine whether anyone in the chain had health issues that sound like KHV. If so, their fish are potential carriers and need to be tested, etc. You have to decide how important those 3 fish are to you. With any rational basis to believe it was KHV, I would euthanize them as humanely as possible, sterilize the entire pond system (and all equipment ever used in or around the pond) with chlorine bleach for several days to be sure nothing could survive any where in it, and then commence the long process of breaking in a new pond. On the other hand, if KHV got mentioned just because nobody was in a position to scrape/scope/diagnose accurately, and nobody in the chain of ponds leading to yours have had KHV symptoms, then let's not panic. With no real reason to think it was KHV, but only a lingering question in the back of the mind simply because there was no ability to diagnose properly, then I think your idea of adding a test koi to the holding tank (but for an extended period of time ) is a good approach to give you peace of mind. Long before KHV, a lot of ponds were wiped out by parasite problems not properly diagnosed. Nowadays, KHV fear can get out of control. A balanced approach based on facts is needed.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Greg: Everything needs to be sterilized and start anew. In laboratory conditions, the KHV virus has not been able to survive without a host for more than 24 hours. But there are insufficient studies to know what the virus can do in a pond environment. Brutuscz: It was not clear to me why KHV was suspected as the source of your problem. It may have been, but the symptoms described along the way were consistent with other possibilities. I would want to trace back to the source of the fish added to your pond to determine whether anyone in the chain had health issues that sound like KHV. If so, their fish are potential carriers and need to be tested, etc. You have to decide how important those 3 fish are to you. With any rational basis to believe it was KHV, I would euthanize them as humanely as possible, sterilize the entire pond system (and all equipment ever used in or around the pond) with chlorine bleach for several days to be sure nothing could survive any where in it, and then commence the long process of breaking in a new pond. On the other hand, if KHV got mentioned just because nobody was in a position to scrape/scope/diagnose accurately, and nobody in the chain of ponds leading to yours have had KHV symptoms, then let's not panic. With no real reason to think it was KHV, but only a lingering question in the back of the mind simply because there was no ability to diagnose properly, then I think your idea of adding a test koi to the holding tank (but for an extended period of time ) is a good approach to give you peace of mind. Long before KHV, a lot of ponds were wiped out by parasite problems not properly diagnosed. Nowadays, KHV fear can get out of control. A balanced approach based on facts is needed.

Hi Mike..I have already sterilized the pond with bleach, as instructed. I had 2 fish in quarantine that I have added..so far, so good. My question is how long should I place the control fish in with them before I should feel safe that it is not khv? I know I had other issues in my pond, but I bought an israeli koi 2 weeks before this started...so I am suspicious of khv. I wont euthinize or send these fish anywhere. I bred them, so they are staying at my home. If I cant return them to my pond, then I will set up a small indoor pond or fishtank to keep them in. The way I feel about it is they didn't ask me to be my pets, I asked them to be my pets. That makes it my resposibility to care for them even when they are sick. So, they will remain in my care regardless...it is just a question of where. Thanks again guys!!

[D@z]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Hi Mike..I have already sterilized the pond with bleach, as instructed. I had 2 fish in quarantine that I have added..so far, so good. My question is how long should I place the control fish in with them before I should feel safe that it is not khv? I know I had other issues in my pond, but I bought an israeli koi 2 weeks before this started...so I am suspicious of khv. I wont euthinize or send these fish anywhere. I bred them, so they are staying at my home. If I cant return them to my pond, then I will set up a small indoor pond or fishtank to keep them in. The way I feel about it is they didn't ask me to be my pets, I asked them to be my pets. That makes it my resposibility to care for them even when they are sick. So, they will remain in my care regardless...it is just a question of where. Thanks again guys!!

M8, with all due respect, you dont seem to have learned from this. You posted that you had introduced a fish without quarentine and were told how irresponsible this was. You claimed over and again that you new the supplier very well and that it had been quarentined for a long period. Once the ineviitable happened, as you had been warned, you insisted it was an air problem and only over several days did you slowly release bits of information. Now you tell us that you intriduced an Israeli Koi 2 weeks before it happened, again information you failed to tell us before when we were trying to help you.

Once again you have asked for help and are ignoring it. Even if it isn't KHV there are a hundred and one other things that could still be in your pond, your fish, your filters etc, you are heading for another costly, cruel disaster if you dont head peoples advice here.

Kill the fish, burn them, dissinfect EVERYTHING until you cant dissinfect any more, them dissinfect again, twice. Then start afresh with a few small fish from a different supplier completely to the ones you've used before. This is the only way you can be sure you get it all and it wont happen again.

This may sound harsh but I tell it like I see it.