Parasites Outbreak

[andrewn15]

Hello all Koi experts, I think I have a Parasite outbreak of some sort. Please help to diagnose and treat my koi.
3500 gal pond 1+ year old.
2 20 " Introduced 3 weeks ago
5 10-12" introduced since day one July of last year. (having problem)
6 4.5-6" introduced more than a week
PH 7.8~8.0 (could not decide base on the color)
Amonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 20 ppm
All test results were done at 6:30 AM and 6:30 PM today Wed. 8/03/05.
On Sunday nite 2 of my koi had shown sign of stress, the left fins on both koi were close to the body and they seem to like the bottom of the pond more but they do come up and eat but not as much as they would normally. I cosulted with a local koi dealer Monday morning and was recommended to give them a salt bath and use Melafix for 3 daysand also add pond salt to water (I'd been around pond and koi for the last 7 years and this is the first time having any kind of sickness and sing salt on pond)
Treatment start on Monday noon.
Two sick koi was dipped in salt bath for 5 min. each I noticed that one of them has a small redness ulcer near the gill area.
Add salt according to the package instruction and 1 dose of Melafix,
second dose of melafix on Tuesday afternoon fish seem to get worse. Today both of the sick fish have some sort of white skin all over the body, (look like someone just had a nasty sunburn and the skin start to peel off.) they hang around the side of the pond and not moving much, the rest of the koi are not eatig at all and hiding under the lilly pads. Is this a condition of the salt or Melafix being add to the pond?
I'd heard about Gill fluke and other parasite problem but never treat my bond for any of them before, all of my fish beside the first 5 came from friend's pond and they were doing well in their pond without any sign of parasite infection. I'd never add anything to the pond beside Amquel when changing water (never have to).
Talked to the koi dealer this morning and was reccomended again to use Prazipond and Proform C to treat the whole pond and also some type of injection for the one with ulcer.
Please help.
Andrew

[koiloco]

Hi Andrew,
Sorry to hear about your trouble.

My advise is that you found out exactly what your sick koi has and cure it. Don't waste your money on medicine after medicine. You are just stressing out your fish even more.
Talk to the dealer you bought your fish from and see if they have any problem. Most likely, they will too if their fish is the carrier.

I myself don't like melafix too much. "Quick cure" is my preferred one.

Also, make sure your salt level is not too high (0.30 is good)

Prazi and proform are both good medicine and EXPENSIVE!!! So make sure they are applicable before using them at all.

BEST MEDICINE OF ALL= QUARANTEEN NEW FISH

[marco]

Hi Andrew, could you joint a pict, if possible a close up ?

Marco

[Koi-Schmid]

Hello,

why don´t you take a swab from the mucous membrane and examine this und a microscope before you use this pharmaceuticals?

Reagrds


Markus

[REC]

Andrew,


I think your assumption of a parasite outbreak is correct and it appears that you added the last two fish without quarantining them and this is where you picked up the parasites. So now your entire pond is infested with them. Some comments about your situation.

1. Find a new koi dealer. The one you went to for advice is clueless. If he was worth a darn, he would have offered to scrape and scope your fish to determine exactly what the problem was and offer treatment accordingly. But he did not and instead, sold you the Melafix he just happen to have on the shelf. Koiloco is correct that Melafix is worthless as an anti-parasite and anti-bacterial. In fact, in cases such as yours where the fish is stressed because of parasite irritation, Melafix can make the situation worse. However, the advice of the Prazipond and/or ProForm C is good.. but read the rest of this first.

2. The appearance of skin coming off the fish is actually excess mucous. It is the mucous coat on the fish that is his first line of defense against parasites and the parasite count on the fish builds, the fish attempts to rid itself of the parasites by excreting excess mucous. All of this adds to stress.

3. Back to your dealer's advice... the salt bath was probably a good idea but you did not state the salt level that you used. Typically, I recommend a salt bath at .6% for 30 minutes. This may or may not effect the parasite depending on which one (s) we are dealing with. But it is a reasonable first step until we get better information. The problem with the salt bath is that if you do not treat the pond for parasites, then the problem will return immediately when the fish is released back to the pond.

4. The ulcer needs to be treated NOW. If you have iodine, use that to treat the area directly using a q-tip to scrub under the scales surrounding the wound site. Potassium permanganate paste works well too. Hydrogen peroxide is a distant third. Commercial preps such as Debride and neosporin work very well. But, unless you remove the stress from the fish, the immune system will stay surpressed and the bacterial infection causing the ulcer will spread rapidly.

5. The best advice you have so far is get a scope and examine a sample of the mucous. This will tell us exactly what is wrong and then we can work to fix it. Without this evidence, we are guessing and left with the recourse of shotgun treatments hoping that we hit the right one soon enough.

Ideally we are looking at having such chems as Praziquantal or Supraverm for flukes, ProForm C for most other parasites, and Dimlin for argulus and anchor worms on hand. Let us know what you have or have available in your area. But first, get the scope exam done and come back to us with the results.

REC

[dick benbow]

this is one of my "buttons' so i'll try and keep it brief.

In order to treat a koi for a medical condition you have to be able to make a diagnosis. If you don't know what you have you can't properly select a medication. That's why in today's world when you call the Dr. he has you come in and makes swabs ( as already suggested) to identify what you have. the day of the broad based anti-biotic is gone. it has to be the correct one for the specific "invader". Parasites and other idiseases are just taking advantage of a
weakened situation. get someone that knows to inspect your koi. get them to come over or bring one in. watch what they do to inspect and make slides to look under the microscope. Because you'll want to be able to do that in the future.

I like to put all my work into prevention. Healthy uncrowded environment where
they can fight things off themselves. But you still have to know what to do when you see a koi flipping or flashing. parasites are like fleas to a pet. You treat them at the first sign and they don't open up wounds for other problems. You make a scraping and find out which bug it is and then treat for that.

say your dealer makes a correct diagnosis of the problem and sells you the correct medication. have you metered to the exact gallon what water your pond contains so that the medication can be administered in the proper amount? Do you have a q tank to use prior to introducing koi to your main pond .

I'm sorry I can't diagnose your problem over the internet. You'll have to rely
on local support. But my hope is you'll learn from this event. Get a microscope
and learn how to use it. get a book, get educated on diseases. make a q tank and learn how to use it. Spend lots of time with your koi and watch them for any indication of something's wrong. then immediately go into hyper gear and be pro active. If you don';t know what your gallonage is please get a meter
and be prepared for next time.
I hope something i've said sticks. I hope you don't feel that I'm uncaring. just the opposite. I want you to be sucessful and happy with your koi. To be successful you have to learn to keep water. Then the koi can keep themselves.

[andrewn15]

Thanks Koi_Bito folks for the input.

I was my problem of not quarantin the new fishes first. This morning 2 of my koi died 15" and 12", I had them since lst year, one of them was the one I'd mentioned with the skin peeling off. the rest of the koi are doing fine still swimming around but do show sign of stress, a couple of the big koi 20+" are hanging near the water fall, I also see 2 other koi having a typical finrot problem.
Did a 20% water change this morning and will talk to the koi dealer again for medication advice. I don't have a scope to look for parasite, can anyone in the area help?
I'm learning a very hard lesson, What do you folks on this board think about using shotgun approach and treat the whole pond completely and get rid of all parasites by using PP and or Prazi. I need all of the advise I can get. I don't want to bury another fish as this seem to be fast acting parasite, the fish died within 3 days of showing problem.
Thanks
Andrew

[Nancy M.]

Hi Andrew
If you can not get your fish scoped then you can always try the shotgun approach (not recommended). Make sure salt level in pond is below .1%. Use proform C 3 days in a row with 20% water changes in between each treatment. next step use Prazi leave in pond 5 to 7 days. No water changes while doing prazi treatment. MAKE SURE UV LIGHTS ARE TURNED OFF DURING BOTH TREATMENTS THE ENTIRE TIME. Prazi comes in liquid and powder form I prefer the liquid it is easier to measure and there is no problem with it breaking down like the powder form. Powder form requires using a gram scale to get accurate measurements. Buy from a reputable koi dealer not a pet store don't bring friends koi into your pond. QT all fish

This could have all been avoided if you had QT your fish.
1. Build a QT tank
2. suggestion get a book on koi heath care, Dr. Nicolas Saint-ernn has an excellent one called Advanced koi care.
3. Get a microscope

[andrewn15]

Thanks for the quick respond Nancy.
Talked to the koi dealer just now, he has no idea beside recommend treating for fin rot problem. This symptom was fast, I did not see the fin rot on the fish last night, this morning something is eating away on the top fin of the body on one fish and white spots on another. Learned a hard lesson, I'll take the shotgun approach as the fish may die soon.
Any idea about the affect of turning off the UV during the treatment for 7 or 8 days?
Thanks
Andrew

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by andrewn15 Thanks for the quick respond Nancy. Talked to the koi dealer just now, he has no idea beside recommend treating for fin rot problem. This symptom was fast, I did not see the fin rot on the fish last night, this morning something is eating away on the top fin of the body on one fish and white spots on another. Learned a hard lesson, I'll take the shotgun approach as the fish may die soon. Any idea about the affect of turning off the UV during the treatment for 7 or 8 days? Thanks Andrew

Andrew
The only effect of turing your uv light off, is your water might go green.
Usually fin rot and aeromonas are seconddary to parisitic infestation. Not always but ususally, make sure you keep yopur water conditions in pristine shape.