Sani-Tred (permaflex) product.

[Steve E]

Koi-san asked about using permaflex to seal a koi pond in another thread. Permaflex is one component coat of the Sani-tred concrete sealant products. They have been around for over 20 years. For a concrete, gunite, block wall & concrete floor, or wood walled above ground qt, etc it is a good alternative to polyurethane. It is not normally applied over dirt with or without a geotextile fabric underlayment.

The sealing process consists of three layers or coats. The first is a coat of permaflex. Similar in viscosity to latex paint. This can be applied with a paint roller. The coverage is 240 sq ft per gallon. After this coat becomes tacky (1 - 2 hours or so) the next layer/coat is applied. This is a product called LRB (Liquid Rubber Base). It is a thicker product similar to toothpaste in consistancy. This is applied at a minimum of 40 mils. After this layer/coat dries to a tacky feeling another layer/coat of permaflex is applied. The company, Sani-Tred, has a web site with more information.

I have seen the product applied and am impressed with the ease of application. The pond I saw is owned by Bob (BobinCA) who lives in Vallejo. Dan (Danzcool) is going to use the product in his pond. If anyone wants to contact either of them, pm me and I will tell you how to get in touch. I am writing this from memory and do not have their information readily available right now. I think those of you in the Bay Area who can get to either of their ponds will find it worth your time.

This product is definitely less expensive to apply than polyurethane. The pond owner can apply it themselves. It is a forgiving product and easy to work with. I will be using it to seal my shotcrete/concrete pond and the block filter chambers. The cost difference is the reason I will be using it. At prices of $10 per sq ft it would cost me $15,000.00 US to seal my pond. Sani-Tred will cost approximately $3,000 US.

This product is an alternative to polyurethane, each has strengths and weaknesses (and that is not the purpose of this thread). I would recommend the pond owner do some reading and find someone who will discuss the merits of one or the other without condeming either one. Since polyurethane has been pretty well explained/discussed elsewhere in this forum I did not include anything about it here. If you have not read either of the two threads that show its' application please do so, they are filled with good information.

Steve

[Akinosan]

I hope I'm not repeating this post, but forgive me if thats the case. I was just thinking that if you are comparing the cost of the two products, then you have to include the cost of the Shotcrete since the polyurea product is dirt to finished pond.

[Ryan S.]

Both seem expensive for use as sealer over concrete for block walls.

[Steve E]

Akinosan, two different applications. In other words apples to oranges. I know that several folks in the bay area have had their ponds sprayed with poly as the structural shell. This is not a construction method normally recommended by Tim Zuber. The poly does not have any real structural integrity for straight wall ponds. This information was posted on another board by Steve Childers who got the information from Tim. Tim did do a pond in Washington state that way but it was dug in soil that is of a rock-like consistency (caliche??). In other words for a straight sided pond Tim himself recommends that poly be applied against some type of a retaining structure, i.e. shotcrete/gunite, block, etc.

Ryan, yes they are expensive. Their benefit is in providing a very smooth and realitvely soft surface with no rough spots or edges for fish to injure themselves, and in stoping any leaching from the concrete. Another alternative for sealing a concrete pond would be plaster, as in swimming pool construction. For my pond that cost is between $2,000 US and $4,000 US. The $4,000 estimate was from a contractor who I suspect did not really want to do the job but figured either way was fine.

Steve

[Ryan S.]

You can have a sealent mixed in the concrete, a variety of mortor spreads that are easy and cheap to apply youself, products like "sure-wall"/stucco-like products, pool paints, exopy paints and other paints, concrete sealents, variety of chlorinated rubber products (intended for pools), CIM, Herco, etc. Most of these easy to apply and very cheap. Poly has a wider selection of applications than just a sealent for gunite ponds. I would probably use Herco.

[Akinosan]

Hey Steve,
Yeah I just had my pond sprayed by Jeff Duncal and Tim Zuber, and it was sprayed over geotextile on dirt with a concrete collar around it. It would be the same as doing a EPDM liner pond, except the Polyurea has no folds in it, and I didn't lose any pond volume to a concrete structure. It won't fracture in an earthquake, and will also probably still be here when my grandchildren are my age. Thats a very long time!

[Steve E]

Ryan, you are correct about the products you mentioned. CIM is just as expensive as Sani-tred and more difficult to apply. It is a very good sealant and I would use it if I could be sure I could apply it correctly. I have read reports from two people who used CIM and ran into problems that required re-coating. They had to wait 30 days (I think) before recoating and one of them had to wire brush the first coat. Herco and the other similar products are also comparatively priced. The admixtures do work but are also expensive. My understanding is $50+ dollars per yard. And in my area I could not find one contractor willing to use one. Plus the ready-mix plants bad talk their use.

What all of this boils down to is the individual pond owner's choice based on what ever research they do themselves or what their contractor offers.

Once again, I am NOT putting down any other product. A question was asked about permaflex and I attempted to answer that question.

Steve

[Steve E]

Akinosan, yeah I saw the pictures in the other thread. Good looking project. My personal preference would be to build a pond with a shotcrete shell. Plus the fact that my wife is a civil engineer and she demands solid construction. Not sure what the earthquake effects are in the bay area with regards to concrete ponds. I wonder how swimming pools fared in the Loma Prieta quake? I know that my pond was build to swimming pool standards as far as structural steel. No earthquakes up here but no cracking either. I know a lady in the Roseville area who used fiberglass to create a shell for her pond and she had a structural collapse. She was able to repair and strengthen it so it worked out okay.

I think you got a good job and should get the years you hope for.

Steve

[luke frisbee]

the "lake" got stucco'ed for $1960 by a crew of five. that included supplies.

It is "fairly waterproof" which means I loose about .5 of an inch aday..most of that to evaporation here in Florida.

In a couple of places the bricks are damp, they do not glisten but are damp. most tell me that will stop as the concrete plugs itself.

XYPEX was added to the stucco during mixing. it cost $100 for the amount I needed. It works. It is a powder of seed molecules. When the seed molecules are in the pesence of water and lime they form crystals, which clog the pores.
I like it. The Stucco guys said it was a little easier to work the stucco with Xypex in it.

And the US Government allows it use for "Potable water containers".

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee the "lake" got stucco'ed for $1960 by a crew of five. that included supplies. It is "fairly waterproof" which means I loose about .5 of an inch aday..most of that to evaporation here in Florida. In a couple of places the bricks are damp, they do not glisten but are damp. most tell me that will stop as the concrete plugs itself. XYPEX was added to the stucco during mixing. it cost $100 for the amount I needed. It works. It is a powder of seed molecules. When the seed molecules are in the pesence of water and lime they form crystals, which clog the pores. I like it. The Stucco guys said it was a little easier to work the stucco with Xypex in it. And the US Government allows it use for "Potable water containers".

Hi Luke
Do you have pictures of this Stucco? I would like to see it. I have never heard of this type of application. Would enjoy hearing more.