ZNA Judging Seminar (KoiAmerica 2005)

[MikeM]

MikeP has posted about a highlight of KoiAmerica in the thread on the show. I thought it useful to break it out as a separate thread in the hope that koi judges see the title and honor us with some insights. I wish I knew how to copy MikeP's post into this one, but maybe he will repeat his thoughts here as well. (Please.)

[MikeM2]

I think it useful to start with photos of the subject 5 fish. Please note that these photos actually make these Sanke look better than they did in person. The red is much more intense than it appeared in person.

[MikeM]

These 5 Sanke were judged by ZNA members participating in the seminar. Then the ZNA certified judges from Japan gave their results and discussed their reasoning. As MikeP states, the overwhelming majority selected the same fish as best. The ZNA judges placed it last. It was a humbling experience.

The judges explained that the indoor lighting made the highest quality Hi appear weak and faded. The Sanke selected as best by the majority of participants had the deepest Hi under the lights. The judges explained that it was purple-based Hi. It looked better under the lights, but was actually the lowest quality Hi. As a result they ranked it last. Clearly, the observation skills of most participants (myself included) were not as refined as the eye of the judges.

It became clear from this exercise how much there is to learn. We often hear that koi are judged "on the day". MikeP shares the observation of JR that Japanese judges do not always separate the future of a fish from the condition of "the day". I took a somewhat different lesson from this.

I have thought of purplish Hi as being disfavored because it does not endure as well as orange-based Hi. A window opened for me at the seminar (or, actually, on the plane trip home) that this was an incomplete understanding. I believe the judges were teaching that in considering "quality", there is an element of the future involved. That is, purplish Hi is low quality without regard to the immediate impression. Although the Sanke with purple-based Hi made the better impression "on the day" (under those lights), it was lacking quality. In the future the deficiencies of purple-based Hi may become obvious under any lighting, but the low quality of purplish Hi is nonetheless a reality "on the day".

As I said, it was a humbling experience. The eye must be trained to see, and the mind must be trained to understand what is seen.

There is much to learn.

I hope JR and other judges stumble across this thread and help lift the fog with their insight.

[l113892]

Great job Mike for getting pictures of these five fish. If you look at Mike's second picture, you will see a maruten Sanke. This Sanke was judged as the second best koi. The Sanke just above it was judged as the best koi, #1 koi. #1 koi has the best beni and best sumi and best bone structure of all five fish, according to the J-judges. Ko-ka-ku = bone structure. The Sanke to the left with the square well placed sumi was judged third best(#3 koi). The Sanke with the most sumi, as Mike said, was placed last(#5 koi). Mr. Fujita said that it is very difficult for sumi to come up in the shiro areas; very easy for sumi to come up in the beni areas. #5 koi had "old style sumi." #3 koi has new style sumi. #2 Sanke had beautiful, eye catching area around the face and shoulder. Other koi lacked that element. #5 Sanke had a pointed face. #1 koi had a rounder face. #5 koi was older than #1, maybe by two years. How did they know that? They looked at the translucent areas in the pec fin. #1 Sanke had pec fins with translucent area closer to the base of the pecs. I may remember a little more when I look at the pictures again. I know on round two I got every fish in the right order. I think I learned what the judges were looking for after round one.

Mike

[l113892]

Mike made a statement about a "window opening for him."

In a similar vein, I think the window that opened for me is when the J-judges refer to the quality of the sumi(for instance), it is not only the color and thickness but also the placement and quantity of the sumi. So, when #1 koi was declared to have the best sumi of the five koi, it wasn't just that the sumi was nice or thick but that the sumi was placed in the "appropriate places" and was in the "right" amounts.

[Rod L.]

Great thread. I have to admit I was one of those that chose the last fish as the # 1 fish. I was quite pleased to hear Galen ? and Pam voice their opinions on a couple of Koi and why they disagreed (especially about the shoulder sumi or lack of).

I think one of the hardest things for me to accept was the part about judging the beni from the pictures instead of from the live Koi. It really thru me and I actually thought he had made a mistake with that statement or was joking. I have never heard that at any of my previous seminars, but that is what it is all about and I love the new learning experience with each seminar.

Ray Abell supplied all the Koi for the first judging contest and I think they were all of the same age, so I'm not so sure the judges were right about that age statement. I'll have to ask Ray on that one. I wish I had taken pics of the hard board with the pics on it to provide for comparison with Mike's pics, but I didn't.

Great experience overall (as usual), and had a great time. Wish I could have made the second round, but had to get on the road, so we passed on the offer.

If you have any pics and answers from the second round, please post them.
Rod L.

[Rod L.]

Mike, that is the one that really thru me. That Koi had very little actual sumi that was up and NO sumi on the shoulder area? No shoulder area sumi immediatley moved this Koi back in the pecking order for me and then the shiro and beni I felt supported my placing it at the back of the pack. WOW, how wrong can one be, according to the judges? Quite the experience! I understand what they were saying, but still can't say that I agree from a standpoint of the fish of the day and not the future or the picture. This is the second time I have attended one of Narita sans seminars (got it wrong last time too) and he did not go over this last time ( I think we were judging Kohaku that time though and we were in full sunlight). My biggest problem with that seminar was what to do about all of the handling damage that most of Koi had sustained and some beni in the pecs. Always fun, always something new to learn.


Rod L.

[Bob Winkler]

I thought there was more sumi on the #1 fish than this picture shows, although that was a point of contention amongst the class. It was in the right places, but markedly absent of finished sumi on the shoulder. Still picked it #1, but if it had had the shoulder sumi would not have been close. I had the advantage of having judged with the Japanese judges the day before all day, so I knew they would consider the lights negating what they would say was the best beni. On this koi. If it had been two days earlier, I might have thought different. Interestingly, I looked at our koi last night under halide lights with a different perspective. On a koi that has the best beni in our pond in sunlight, it looked a lot like what this one did. So it adds even more credibility for me to what the Japanese judges said, even if many others doubted it then.



Many of the koi with more sumi had too much of it for me. No elegance IMHO, if that is the right word. Very messy. That hurt them a bit in my eyes. I picked a different koi as having the best sumi, but the overall best impression for me was #1.



The confirmation on all these koi was very thin. Rod, I have a picture of what was on the board, and will post it later when I get home, if no one else has. The second group had better shape, probably better beni across the board, but we did not get to go that seminar.

[Rod L.]

Funny you should mention busy sumi, Bob. That was my first impression of Koi E and I was determined not to place it high when I looked at the pictures, but once we got to the tank and had a real comparison and overall view of the Koi I changed my mind. I still didn't like the busy sumi, but the depth of all 3 colors and location of placement changed my mind. I kept saying no, no, no, no and then had to say yes (so glad I wasn't alone on this one, as I think about 90 percent of the group made the same wrong choice). I always seem to get the middle grouping right or just one off, but first and last I always pick wrong, but am amazed at why.

Now to kick myself in the ass, I was ask to bowl and net on Saturday and would have gotten the benefits you did, was really a bit tired and aching from the setup process on Thursday and Friday. My heart wanted to do it and get to hear what the Japanese judges had to say, but the body just wasn't in to it.

Rod L.

[l113892]

"...judging the beni from the pictures instead of from the live Koi"
I think Mr. Fujita's point here was that the indoor light gave a false impression of the beni- nothing else. Without giving it away, he said to place more merit on the beni in the picture. My problem was the beni on the pictures all looked about the same. I can't judge shiro, beni and sumi from pictures.

As for the age of the fish, while all the fish may have been the same age, at least one fish had a younger appearance. I think that was his point. The younger looking fish is more attractive.

As for the shoulder sumi there was some shoulder sumi around the right shoulder of the fish. The sumi wasn't up and did not leave an impression for me but I think the J-judges saw that sumi as placed fairly well so for that reason they considered it good sumi.