US Bred

[woodyaht]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, other than, "can a US breeder come up with show quality koi". While I was working yesterday, I was thinking that if our parents are of the same descent, i.e. German, Italian, Phillipino, Mexican, we all end up with the same traits as the people from our home land. Our human "conformation" depends on our parent stock. So if you choose the correct bloodline in a fish, why can't the same quality be had here? There has to be somewhere in the US that has similar water quality, and mud for the ponds to be the equivilant of Japan.

[woodyaht]

One more thing, why isn't a fish that is bred from 2 Japanesse parents still considered Japanesse? If both my parents are French then, I am French.........

[JasonS]

One can breed Matsunoske fish in America. They are still American (it is a matter of where they are born) of Matsuonske descent.

But nevermind the naming conventions we have for political boundaries. We're talking about fish!

I think the big trick is volume. There are just ALOT of fish bred in Japan and ALOT of experience among the breeders there. Some very good parent stock and some very experienced people are working towards an American born GC BUT not every spawn produces a fish capable of GC, nevermind actually getting it to grow to its potential.

Mudponds are the big reason (pun intended). It is a volume thing and a water thing; not all water grows Kohaku well. And Kohaku is where the smart money bets for GC.

I think we will see an American GC within the next ten years. But American born GC of All Japan? Never.

[Ryan S.]

There will probably be a major US show GC, US breed GC sometime in this decade. There a couple big limitations. One is there are really on 4 good US breeders. Among that group some some weather constraits based on location, 2 of them are really part-time businesses, and abilty to import top level stock (availability, costs, and fear of KHV). They also face issues b/c of the american market. Most of fish sold here are tosai, so that is primary market. They simply cannot afford to raise a good number of fish 3+ years in big water because they can not get the high dollar prices for domestic koi in this range. Probably the biggest thing is they (US Breeders as a group) have not done a good job of putting there top fish in the hands of the better hobbiest, who is capable of raising and conditioning the fish for that level of competition.

Ryan S.

[keokoi]

Very Interesting Comments so far..

If a US bred koi wins GC in a US show.. What does that mean? It certainly doens't mean that the quality is of same as Japan... It means it was the best koi of that day only and maybe the competition wasn't there and that JR is $1 in debt.



But serioulsy to understand this you need to see the top quality koi of Japan in the secret Greenhouses. I was Able to view some at Momo and Dainichi #1 greenhouse..

No Comparison in terms of Condition...

Chris Parent stock is Parent stock your right.. But Culling is the art of trying to bring out the best of the rest which is time consuming and an art passed down Generations to Generations.. So many variables ..

The thing you gotta acheive is of those who are breeding in Taiwan, ROC.. Seen any of there koi? Its actually worth looking at...

Did that makes sense? just came back from a run so kinda brain dead now..


Joe

[junglegeorge12]

Part of it is knowing how to pick parents, and getting the right matches for male and female from the same bloodlines. You almost need a miracle to find out how to do that and also be able to get the right fish. The Japanese have made it available to the diligent and hard searcher, but wisely do not simply pass out that info to everyone. You have to dig.

One other reason is americans want to use a lake, not a pond, and have a very uncontrolled environment due to that. I have seen koi breeders with goldfish in their breeding ponds, and they use the saem ponds for breeding as they do for growing. One reason for that is simply water supply due to location. You almost need free water and a huge RO unit. They aslo tend to keep trying to get away with hard water and high ph, and that drastically affects quality. Weather is also a factor, hard to produce volume if you only breed once a year. Many of them have also not got the marketing skills to get the volume you spoke of.

[woodyaht]

Quote: Originally Posted by keokoi Very Interesting Comments so far.. If a US bred koi wins GC in a US show.. What does that mean? It certainly doens't mean that the quality is of same as Japan... It means it was the best koi of that day only and maybe the competition wasn't there and that JR is $1 in debt. But serioulsy to understand this you need to see the top quality koi of Japan in the secret Greenhouses. I was Able to view some at Momo and Dainichi #1 greenhouse.. No Comparison in terms of Condition... Chris Parent stock is Parent stock your right.. But Culling is the art of trying to bring out the best of the rest which is time consuming and an art passed down Generations to Generations.. So many variables .. The thing you gotta acheive is of those who are breeding in Taiwan, ROC.. Seen any of there koi? Its actually worth looking at... Did that makes sense? just came back from a run so kinda brain dead now.. Joe

What got me thinking about this goofy question, is I was up at Ohsokoi the other day, (I haven't been up there since early spring) and they did a really heavy selective breeding this year. They have 8 mud ponds I believe, and they were all full, 1 showa pond, one sanke pond, 2 or 3 Kohaku ponds, a Ogon pond, and a Kawaragoi pond, etc., and I was impressed.

The art of culling is going to play the key for them, but they have a pretty knowledgable fellow helping this year, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with. Their parent stock should be very good, as they brought in hand picked parents to breed.

[luke frisbee]

I'm gonna post and then go back and read what ya'll wrote...
Here is the world according to Luke:

you take the four best Japanese breeders and have them come over here and pick and choose out of Brady's and Brett's( and any two other "Show Koi" breeders here in the US) and then let them sembetsu and cull the millions of fish from brett's and barady's and Whomever else's Mud ponds where they raised up the fry.
Those fry would be pretty similar to the fish that the Japanese breeders would have picked out of their mud ponds two or three years ago ...maybe last year if the Japanese breeder is really good.
And if we let brady and brett loose on some of the better japanese Koi farms they'd probably come up with about what they raise here in the US...Maybe a little better.
Thing is when you buy a "BLOODLINE" actually you are buying a Body...a body of work. That fish is the art of the breeder....pairing's selection, care of the fry, feeding, sembetsu, culling...remembering what works, what didn't, what they want to risk to get better.

So there ya go...you aren't buying koi, a country, a bloodline, you are buying a piece of the breeder....now if you buy from a dealer then you are buying his appreciation of the breeders he deals with, or his insight into what makes a koi valuable....
That's why I talk more about breeders..

Thing is the japanese Cull deeper than the US breeder...I think Maurice is going to be a force to be reckoned with because he is breeding quite a few koi and will be limited to what he can keep. he's going to be forced to cull like the japanese. ( It might have been his plan, or understanding and therefore he feels comfortable with his facility...either way it should work....he'll have to watch himself, I know I would. I'm a silly American. I want to save everything to see what comes of it.)

SO another way of saying it is that the Americans are compassionate, caring individuals that value ever life........regardless

EDIT due to a misplaced comma that made a sentence difficult to understand.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by woodyaht I don't know if this has been brought up before, other than, "can a US breeder come up with show quality koi". While I was working yesterday, I was thinking that if our parents are of the same descent, i.e. German, Italian, Phillipino, Mexican, we all end up with the same traits as the people from our home land. Our human "conformation" depends on our parent stock. So if you choose the correct bloodline in a fish, why can't the same quality be had here? There has to be somewhere in the US that has similar water quality, and mud for the ponds to be the equivilant of Japan.

Me I am filipino, but dont look filipino and if you saw me you would think I am Samoan...I make Joe look tiny... The funny thing about it is I have more Spanish Bloodline than most filipino and I am hella darker... Well anyways, it's the environment, in which koi are raised that makes them different from country to country. Can US breeder grow show quality koi? Dunno...to be honest, I have never seen a US breeder advertise he has show quality koi...why is that? Maybe because they haven't yet...A good person to ask this question is Brett Rowley, he is probably one of the most respected breeders in the US.

[woodyaht]

I think another thing that US breeders are at fault over is they don't have the passion that the Japanese do. Maurice is the only person that I have seen that has a goal. The US breeders seem to want to produce "koi", but they aren't going for the high end market. They want to have their sales tanks full of pretty, colorful fish to sell to the family that shows up to the farm on a Sat. with their children saying we want to buy some koi for our 200gal. pond.


The Japanese definatly have a passion, they want to produce beauty, not we have a special on pumps and UV's today, and we have beautiful koi to sell you too