Bonsai and koi concepts - Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine

kingkong · 08-21-2005

The Japanese have skills for developing art forms to the max. The tricks of the trade need to be closely watched and studied so that the propotions of your particular concern, bonsai or koi , arrive at some point of time, into a finished form of art fitting a tub or table top at the town show. Having a black pine with a 8 inch caliper planted in a 16 inch pot or a 38 inch koi swimming in a 10 thousand gallon pond have something in common. They were both cared for with skill and put into an environment during development that allowed for excellent growth. One requires a well-managed mud pond with abundant food supply to grow to full potential, the other requires earth, rich in minerals and water in order to grow to proportions in trunk size that would never be achieved in container growth development. Only after maximizing the size, taking full advantage of unlimited restricted growth, do you go the next step of refining the branches or setting the color. Then, and only then, will full potential of the art form come to fruition and dazzle the observer.

luke frisbee · 08-21-2005

"BAM?!"

I have always preached how a 38 inch koi in a 10,000 pond looks like a lion in a circus cage.
While a bonsai gives of an energy from the struggle it has lived a big koi in a small pond just looks sad.

Amazing we could see this so differently.

kingkong · 08-21-2005

Interesting and so true. There is definitly two camps on this one. I have bonsai that have trunks big enough to stop the forward motion of my wife's Honda stuffed into pots. To my dismay, most people are horrified when viewing such a creation. When I see a killer whale stuffed in a public display, I get that same tortured look on my face and I have to admitt, a 38 inch fish probably deserves more than 10 thousand gallons. Maybe we should be putting on public display koi that are raised from scratch in our own ponds and discourage the display of "Shamu" koi that find themselves living the ballance of their lives in restrained tanks. I think Iam going to plant that bonsai in the ground know that I am feeling guilty.

dick benbow · 08-21-2005

give you guys another spin....

bonsai live so long because we force them to constantly renew themselves.

Every few years we repot them and root prune. They have to rebuild the roots all over again. Annually/seasonally we prune them and they have to oblige by reseting new buds.

I guarantee you they would never live as long in the ground on their own.

my take on a big koi in 10.000 gallons is, how many other koi are sharing her domain ( 3-4 very reasonable) unlike bonsai where you want a pot to fit proportionally to the diameter of the nebari, a short squat deep pond doesn't do a big koi justice like a longer narrow one so they can get up to speed and swim for a while instead of making one tail flick and immediately applying the brakes.

luke frisbee · 08-21-2005

KK,
Seriously? you couldn't have misread me that bad!
Bonsai seem grounded and full of life in minurature(sp). They seem whole and strong.
But big koi want to swim. like Dick said.

Dick,
We disagrre about what keeps bonsai alive for so much longer. i always thought it was the fact that their metabolism was so restricted that made it possible for them to keep going..and the fact that they have a fanatic caring for them.

dick benbow · 08-22-2005

actually that is a common misconception that bonsai are mal treated and therefore look old and forlorn. They are fed and manicured ( agreeably by a fanatic ) but are made to keep active and therefore extend their life. Kinda like the buzz word among retirerees " use it or loose it" !

All this summer i have looked for an aka matsue but with no luck. Can only find in gallon containers at select nurseries, yet 5-7 year old kuro matsue's are everywhere. last year I was looking for a good scots pine but couldn't find one so planted a gallon sized one and raised two from seeds this year. may have to do that with my favorite

08-21-2005	#1 (permalink)
kingkong Jumbo Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 946	Bonsai and koi concepts The Japanese have skills for developing art forms to the max. The tricks of the trade need to be closely watched and studied so that the propotions of your particular concern, bonsai or koi , arrive at some point of time, into a finished form of art fitting a tub or table top at the town show. Having a black pine with a 8 inch caliper planted in a 16 inch pot or a 38 inch koi swimming in a 10 thousand gallon pond have something in common. They were both cared for with skill and put into an environment during development that allowed for excellent growth. One requires a well-managed mud pond with abundant food supply to grow to full potential, the other requires earth, rich in minerals and water in order to grow to proportions in trunk size that would never be achieved in container growth development. Only after maximizing the size, taking full advantage of unlimited restricted growth, do you go the next step of refining the branches or setting the color. Then, and only then, will full potential of the art form come to fruition and dazzle the observer.

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08-21-2005	#2 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	"BAM?!" I have always preached how a 38 inch koi in a 10,000 pond looks like a lion in a circus cage. While a bonsai gives of an energy from the struggle it has lived a big koi in a small pond just looks sad. Amazing we could see this so differently.

08-21-2005	#3 (permalink)
kingkong Jumbo Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 946	Interesting and so true. There is definitly two camps on this one. I have bonsai that have trunks big enough to stop the forward motion of my wife's Honda stuffed into pots. To my dismay, most people are horrified when viewing such a creation. When I see a killer whale stuffed in a public display, I get that same tortured look on my face and I have to admitt, a 38 inch fish probably deserves more than 10 thousand gallons. Maybe we should be putting on public display koi that are raised from scratch in our own ponds and discourage the display of "Shamu" koi that find themselves living the ballance of their lives in restrained tanks. I think Iam going to plant that bonsai in the ground know that I am feeling guilty.

08-21-2005	#4 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,164	give you guys another spin.... bonsai live so long because we force them to constantly renew themselves. Every few years we repot them and root prune. They have to rebuild the roots all over again. Annually/seasonally we prune them and they have to oblige by reseting new buds. I guarantee you they would never live as long in the ground on their own. my take on a big koi in 10.000 gallons is, how many other koi are sharing her domain ( 3-4 very reasonable) unlike bonsai where you want a pot to fit proportionally to the diameter of the nebari, a short squat deep pond doesn't do a big koi justice like a longer narrow one so they can get up to speed and swim for a while instead of making one tail flick and immediately applying the brakes.

08-21-2005	#5 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	KK, Seriously? you couldn't have misread me that bad! Bonsai seem grounded and full of life in minurature(sp). They seem whole and strong. But big koi want to swim. like Dick said. Dick, We disagrre about what keeps bonsai alive for so much longer. i always thought it was the fact that their metabolism was so restricted that made it possible for them to keep going..and the fact that they have a fanatic caring for them.

08-22-2005	#6 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,164	actually that is a common misconception that bonsai are mal treated and therefore look old and forlorn. They are fed and manicured ( agreeably by a fanatic ) but are made to keep active and therefore extend their life. Kinda like the buzz word among retirerees " use it or loose it" ! All this summer i have looked for an aka matsue but with no luck. Can only find in gallon containers at select nurseries, yet 5-7 year old kuro matsue's are everywhere. last year I was looking for a good scots pine but couldn't find one so planted a gallon sized one and raised two from seeds this year. may have to do that with my favorite