Bs/ Bm?

[gregbickal]

I didn't find it on Kerins site thats why I had asked. I used the link from above.

[junglegeorge12]

Greg, you can go to either www.keirinponds.com or to www.yumekoi.com for all that info. The trays in inches are about 10"x10"x30". A four tier shower holds 50-60kg of media. The flow rate for one shower is supposed to be between 3000-4000 gph. If you live in the states you might want to give Keirin a call. They are really nice folks and will answer any questions you have. They might even know of someone in your area with one so you can check it out, or have a dealer near you already.



If you tell us more about your gallonage, conditions, and fish load we can ask either Carl from Keirin or Mike Snaden from Yume to give us their opinion of how much media you should use. Since ponds really vary with stocking rates, the 2000 gallons for one tier does allow some breathing room for the normal overstocking most folks with a pond that size do.

Bob Hart who just posted here has obviously had some experience working with it, and looking at the fact he is buying more I would say he is probably pretty satisfied with it. He might be able to tell you more about his experience.

[luke frisbee]

the only aspect of BM that I am "Bashing" is the strategy used to create a "mystique" about BM and therefor justify its price and capture a share of the market.
It should not be seen as the "only" media capable of the accomplishments of Porous media Showers.

At this time I do not know of a better media, when price is not to be considered.
Good media.

Bad marketing....
The marketing has caused many in the hobby to believe in psuedo-scientific explanations. And not what really occurs.
When I was a health educator I had to rebuild the minds/beliefs of students that had been exposed to psuedo-science. Usually Psuedo-science that was developed and espoused to make money.
Val is a teacher as well. Perhaps we share a common bond in that we've come in contact with the commercial interests over-riding the truth. And neither of us can stomach it. Bare with us on that regard.

bakki media is good stuff. If you don't want to understand how or why it works, that is fine. But please don't believe the hype, or supplement it by espousing the virtue of FIR in regard to how well BM works.

Like I have said from the get go, If I could afford BM I'd have already bought about 40-60 cu.ft.
I do like Porous media Showers.

[junglegeorge12]

lol, oh boy here we go again, more fun and whackiness on the luke go round.....

1-student teachers are not teachers
2-you have yet to really explain why it works, just attack those who have researched it
3-you nor val have ever worked with ceramics or IR in depth and are mostly speaking from knee jerk reactions, not facts
4-the proof that FIR affects water has already been posted very plainly by real working research scientists with phd in hand not in hopes, and years of in depth working knowledge in the field
6-anyone can cut and paste equations from books, proves nothing other than right click and left click on the mouse work, and using wrong equations and thinking to apply them to problems seem to be the norm, yet you want us to trust your 'science'????
7-this thread was about flow rates and water flow and solutions, not what your already stated opinions of marketing approaches are.

Parrots do not keep repeating the same things over and over because they are intelligent....

One man
1-Raises champion koi for years, 8 out of 9 last GCs. He has also bred millions of koi of top quality for decades.
2-Hires experienced scientists to help him develop media that works spectacularly well, which even you agree on.
3-That scientist gives an explanation for why without giving away the recipe, which means he may be more than smart, he may be absolutely brilliant and that much briliance should never be underestimated.

Another man has
1-never made a filter that works.
2-Has never raised or bred one koi.
3-Has hired no scientists of note that have worked in any related fields, but calls a student teacher with some textbooks, and spends many hours a day online attacking the first guy based on his presumptions and anger.
4-He has also traveled to the UK and met EA guys who are losing massive market share to BH, and lives near a chemical bio fish company in florida.

You don't have to be a scientist to figure that one out. You just have to be conscious.........can we drop the attack Momo thing and just enjoy a cool refreshing shower........

Here is a quote luke-"Those who live by the sword will also die by it"

Maeda beleives peace is one of the things koi are all about. Why don't you just fill your pond with peace, and soak in it for a while?

You guys tell me who is more trustworthy.

BTW, we all have really high hopes for you and your koi pond in the future. I hope you can work out an affordable and high quality filter solution. Call Carl from Keirin, he is a really nice guy like most koi guys. He might be able to help you find a solution for all that gallonage in your budget, he has massive gallonage and was not always a millionaire........

Also, I do respect the fact that you threw yourself in deeper than you could swim, it is the best way to learn and takes guts. I think one day we will look back and say what a benefit and encouragement you were to the hobby.......you have helped me be a little less afraid to go big.......and a little more determined to clean the weeds out of the field down here

[Valarc]

George all you've done is constantly link unrelated articles and you sit here blasting me for my credentials and claiming all i do is cut and paste. Unlike you, I have the scientific background to understand why the crap you spout is nonsense. I had taken you off ignore because you almost started to act like an adult there for a little bit, but you are going back. You are useless and quickly driving me away from this forum. It's sad that one delusional little weirdo can drag this place down so far, because I really enjoy the conversations I have with others around here.

[Bob Hart]

OK, I'll just explain my thinking on this.

When BHM was first marketed a number of us laughed at FIR's and we're still laughing now. I dont understand it, or really care whether there are some or not.

What I did do was go and visit a whole load of ponds with showers and talk to those people. None of them mentioned FIR's at all and I assume they feel the same as myself. What they did say was how good there water was now, how much healthier their Koi looked, how simple the system works, takes up no space at all and is virtually maintenance free. When asked where does all the poop go, no real answers, but it goes!

So I bought one, have had it as an addition to my pond for 18-months. I dont have much money, so I have to save up for everything and therefore I dont waste money. I rarely have to touch the thing, it just sits there and runs. I have mentioned before, that in March I took the lid off, the previous time I did this was in the October. So 6-months with no maintenance - I like that, I can use that time elsewhere!

I have revisited some of the pond owners again and they are still over the moon, some even adding more showers to new ponds they have built.

So I'm not interested in science to prove or disprove theories, the system's work and work very well.

So I'm going over to a fully showered system over the Autumn/Winter. This will create me a massive amount work to carry out this exercise, my current filter is 1500 gallons and is made of fibreglassed concrete blocks. A whole load of this will have to come out, but it's going to be worth it.

So I can understand why some of you guys want to pick holes in marketing hype, but go buy one and prove to yourself it works. Forget the hype/marketing, if you want a system which is virtually maintenance free, this is the one for you (and me).

[tewa]

hey bob

great to hear you are going all to showers, you will get every penny worth mate. keep us up to date with how it all progresses

tewa

[James P]

OK I gotta set the record straight here again.

Maeda has not bred koi for decades. He has raised koi. He was a restaurant owner and hobbyist for decades.

He has not sold millions of koi- he is relatively new to mass production.

Maeda has not produced 8 of the last 9 GCs in the All Japan. I have attended the last 14 shows, missing two along the way, and these statements are a distortion of reality. Or maybe a misunderstanding due to ignorance?

Maeda is a lovely guy, generous host, an expert grower and now a rising super star breeder. His peak is yet to come.



FIR products and the 'invention' using ceramic oxides of aluminum oxide, silicon oxide, iron oxide, titanium oxide etc is eleven years old. As per the original inventor! Its claims of/as an alkaline adjuster, bacteria killer and organic remover are still just claims in the scientific community as far as I know? The reduction of water clusters from 'large size to small size' is very hard for those familiar with hard science to accept.

Those switching from small submerged filters to relatively large wet/dry designs will notice an instant difference in water quality. The fish will 'change' in behavior and colors due to degassing and circulation benefits- do not confuse this observation with FIR radiation.

The recommended application for adequate FIR radiation of water even by the manufactures is 20% by weight ratio of media to water. Maeda used a tiny tiny fraction of this in the big pond right up until 2003. And none before 1998. The new ponds, used for winter holding now have a closer ratio; they are only running two years now at most. It is too soon to open the champagne boys.

The very successful British hobbyist often used as a marketing instrument, runs K1 AND BH so calm down about kaldnes George. Marketing pushes always gain market share. That is their purpose.

I suggest we all keep testing, listen closely to all feedback as time goes by and keep an open, albeit skeptical, view for now.

[gregbickal]

JG12: Thank you for the dimensions. I looked all over Kerins site and could not find it. In case you don't know me, Im a DIY guy. I saw a BH at the MPKS show in Chicago. I have used trickle tower filters for quite some time. Im in the planning stages for my japanese style koi house which I intend to start building next week. I will be encorperating a DIY BH filter with this new pond (using lava rock) as the media. The reason I was asking for specs was I wanted to make sure I get the mechanics right.

I had not visited the Yumekoi website before. From the Advertising pitch, now I see why this debate is so heated. Not having used it the BH media, but stricktly from my observations I think that BH media would work better than Lava Rock, Will I spend the additional money to purchase BH instead of Lava Rock, NO. If I had the money, I wouldnt be doing everything DIY.

[linuxrocks]

Greg,

Glad to see another DIY'r. I too agree with the $$ on BHM, just for me right now the $195/10kg box is out of my range unless I win the lottery :P

Anyways, the whole FIR debate is long winded and neither side is getting anywhere. I'm not sure if all this squabbling is over loss or gain of sales or just "Arm Chair Quarterbacks" as we call them here in the states just a little bored. But this is the 3rd forum thats getting ugly and the personal attacks are childish and not very useful is REALLY finding out if FIR does in deed work and is present in BHM. I too have read many articles and if in deed it does help then so be it. But I remember years back when they used to say "Eating too much Movie Popcorn will cause Cancer". What they didn't tell you is that one would have to eat truck loads daily!

There my be in fact truth in FIR, but how much it truly works will stay a mystery at least for me right now.

Greg, I saw your site a while ago showing some of you DIY plans, good work! I love to get my hands dirty and get dow to the nitty gritty on how things work and actually save myself $$$ by creating the same product at a sustantial lower price tag!

I've been using a Bakki Shower I built for 6 months now with Lava Rock in it, no cleaning of the rock as of yet, the bins are @ 34"L x 16"D x 20"H that hold 55gal each. I stacked 3 of them with a spacing of 8" so it stands pretty tall.

This spring we are building a much larger pond...5X bigger. I'm still looking for longer bins with a shorter profile so the stacks wont be as high and will allow for more surface area for them to do their work. THe pond will also include 2 drains, 1 skimmer either 2 Vortex chambers or just a large settlement also 2 5,800gph sequence pumps that I picked up at a Koi show down in D.C. earlier this month.

Back on to BHM Greg, I spoke to John MacDonald from Keirin Koi at that show in D.C. and he said since I can't sell my soul or BHM just buy a box at a time as I can afford while keeping Lava Rock in there until. Makes sense to me. BHM does in deed provide more surface area and more porose that are deeper into the material for bacteria to grow. So that in it self is a plus.