Size vs Quality at koi show???

[dinh]

When buying koi, many breeders or dealers always said that price is based on koi quality, not size. Also, in other bobby such as car, diamond or art, quality is more important that size. But for Koi show, seems like koi size is matter. A smaller size with higher quality can't over come the bigger size. Just wondering the main reason for this? Hope to hear from koi hobbyists as well as koi judges's comments???

Best regards,
--Dinh

[James P]

I think I can help here? The reason adult or mature champion, young and baby champion exist is to allow for the fact that the Grand champion and the reserve champion ( second best fish in the show) goes to the very best ADULT fish in the show. There is also the jumbo award which is to go to the very best LARGE fish in the show. So there is a well thought out slot for each description of 'winner' in a show.

Additionally, koi are really judged on a sliding scale of criteria based on their age (which implies size).



Baby and young fish are heavily critiqued on pattern and color, for instance.

Young adults are considered based on body as an important element on a weighted scale as they get into larger sizes.

Full sexually mature adults are reviewed for volume and perfect imposing conformation and other quality elements.



A good judge will also recognize when size is an indicator of quality and when he or she is looking at a large pond grade fish. Elements of size and volume, which is also an assessment of bone structure is a form or a dimension of what we call ‘quality’. On the other hand, in warmer areas of the world, pond grade koi can get very large yet this is not an indication of quality as many of these big ponders will also show deformities and lack volume as it appears in high end genetic fish.



In Western shows the plot thickens! We often see super high class genetics competing with jumbo pond grade fish. The judge must sometimes reach down to a smaller size to get the ‘lesson’ right. This confuses many exhibitors as they say “the large fish always wins, why in this one case is a smaller fish winning?”

Other exhibitors are confused when brightly colored well patterned somewhat smaller fish do not win over competitors who possess exceptional size and volume but the pattern may not be as technically correct? This goes back to HOW large fish are judged as opposed to young fish ( as I mentioned above).

Hope this helps? JR

[luke frisbee]

THINK for YOURSELVES....

I've come to like a body shape...not quite as slim as the "Judge's Standard" but closer than it was a year ago. As A matter of fact I see koi all the time that have good color and pattern that i don't give a second look to because of their bad body shape.

Now that being said.....Why?
Why are bigger and bigger fish being the goal of a great number of breedrs?

a three foot koi is bigger than 99.99% of the hobbyists could put in their ponds and the pond and fish look aesthetically right. yet breeders are passed that standard and going on further.

The impetus comes form TWO directions, both which need to be addressed and corrections done to the method and dogma used to determine the GC (best Koi) at a show.

The first, the Farmer's veiw...when koi were just carp a bigger fish was ALWAYS better as it fed more people. In most farm animals BIGGER is better. When koi were being pulled out of a carp it was done by farmers. the first breeders were farmers, and the "Farmer" mentality of bigger is ALWAYS better was inherent to koi from the beginning. The farmer's Shows, koi or otherwise , have had Massive size as a criteria for winning.

the second, a Hobbyist veiw... a tosai; We can see the little dot or zip of color and the potential....each day the koi gets bigger; which is a good thing because then we can see the koi a bit better....appreciate the koi better.
For years the koi gets bigger, and as it does we can see it better and better and better.
And getting bigger means the hobbyist is keeping it alive, and that is an accomplishment in and of itself (which makes the hobbyist feel better on another level.).
And since these two positive things (the appreciation becomes easier, and we feel better about our husbandry skills) happen as our fish gets bigger we become conditioned to believe that Bigger is always better.


But after I understood this I came to the realization that the best fish at a koi show does not represent a fish 99.99% of the Koi hobbyists could appreciate in THEIR pond.
Biggness should become less significant once a koi reaches an acceptable size where its pattern. color, movement, and body shape can be fully appreciated.
A 26 inch koi that is perfect in every area IS a Fish that SHOULD beat a 33 inch fish that is insufficient in any of the areas of color, lustre, shape, movement, or pattern.
Size only matters to a point. Think.

[kevan]

i agree that more emphisis should be place on quality and not size,
in general i feel many of the larger grand champions are actually not half as beautiful as some of the slightly smaller class koi,

this bothers me as i like koi for their beauty not because i want a big but ugly submarine in my pond. off course if you can get the size and the quality then great but im sorry to say as far as ive seen at shows size almost always wins over beauty.

my other concern is where does it all end...a 2M fish?

also im not convinced that size truely indicates any husbandry skills these days, as you can buy a 6 year old 85cm koi directly from the breeder.

it may not be very old it may not be very beautiful you may not have had any involvement in its growth, you just laid down the cash had it shipped and it wins....where is the fun? i guess this could apply to all koi shows which is why i myself prefer the growing type of koi competitions over the general std shows.

but getting back to beauty over size, i do feel if the Judges paid more attention to the qualty of the koi and less on the size then i feel the competion would be a lot tougher and more inclusive and truer in my mind to the beauty of koi.

kevan

[koinut]

I don't believe that BIG always wins. I suppose that people are not used to seeing what a true jumbo conformation looks like, let alone what to look for. Hobbyists often feel that they have the idea because they have read in a magazine that ("this is what to look for! big head, good conformation and skin quality"), but if you've never seen it, how can one say that they now what to look for? Also in very large, or should I say true jumbo specimens with excellent body conformation are few and far between, not only in the US, but around the wolrld. One can almost find an excellent koi that's say 24inches. But now go to 34inches and you're talking HUGE. It's also that much easier to see smaller, or shall I say younger fish in very good condition, whereas the large jumbos usually have some form of flaw, from a scratch or skin quality not as youthful, but the overall presence of a true jumbo is absolutely breathtaking. Seeing pictures of an All Japan GC doesn't really give one the true effect of the size and elegance of its true size and beauty.

[dick benbow]

I have seen judges stick with a bigger older koi and i've also seen them go down several size categories and grab a smaller younger koi who's quality cannot be denied. Both mentalities have merit and are oft times made depending on the quantity or quality of the individual koi that make up that particular show.

[RayJordan]

I am a candidate judge in the AKCA judging program. These issues only come into play where show rules allow smaller koi ot even be considered for Grand Champion. Show rules in Japan, depending on organization running show, usually specify GC comes from koi over 85 cm or what ever. Not stated int he rules but certainly part of the tradition is GC comes from Gosanke over 85 cm.

In the U.S. many shows do not limit consderation of GC to just the top 1 or 2 sizes. I think it has to do with our wanting to insure every koi gets full consideration. Deciding when a smaller higher quality koi deserves to be ranked over a much larger but somewhat lower quality koi is difficult to explain. When a smaller koi is selected the judges will be critisized. When the larger koi is selected the judges will be critisized. The judges that I respect the most can clearly expain their decsions, be professional, and keep their sense of humor throughout. Not always easy.

[aquitori]

Me and Dinh talked about this on Sat at Champkoi...Dinh said he was goin to post this question and I told him that it would be a very interesting thread.
That's why they have a size categories...I think the only execption to the "Size thing" was at the All Japan Show, when the 101cm Sanke beat the 3 step SFF Kohak...The fact of the matter is Gosanke in the 101cm range is rare, even though it didn't have the quality it had the size...

[James P]

Sorry, I have to disagree, that 101 sanke has plenty of quality. You had to see it live and close to appreciate how amazing that koi really was. The color was youthful and of classic matsunsuke quailty. It was amazing to see a fish with three dimensions to it scale and fukurin skin areas. The sumi was thick even on a three dimensional skin and scale surface.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by JR Sorry, I have to disagree, that 101 sanke has plenty of quality. You had to see it live and close to appreciate how amazing that koi really was. The color was youthful and of classic matsunsuke quailty. It was amazing to see a fish with three dimensions to it scale and fukurin skin areas. The sumi was thick even on a three dimensional skin and scale surface.

Can you say that if the Sanke was not 101cm would it still have a chance at beating the SFF Kohak? Also, Japanese judging seem to give more consideration to unfinished sumi on Showa do they do the same with Sanke?