Why aren't judges considered "Professional".

[aquitori]

Just wanted to throw this one out there. I was walking around work this morning think about this. If the term "Professional" is given to dealers or anyone in the "Koi" trade(pond builders etc..). Why aren't judges considered professional, since they have the highest honor in the koi hobby and they go through a training process why aren't they "Professional".....

[woodyaht]

To me they are professionals, they, like you said have the highest honor over and above the dealers. They are represenatives of AKCA, ZNA, etc.

We take our koi to shows to have them judged by hobbiest? We take them there to have them judged by "pros".

[RayJordan]

Please see my post on the Shinkokai thread.

Professionals as you seem to be using the team is used to denote individuals involved in selling koi. Hobbyists are just that not 'working" for a breeder or dealer or trying to sell koi. Lots of debate about who is a "professional" but I am not interested in getting into that issue.

Issues can arise when a koi dealer/breeder is invited to judge a show and picks koi they have sold for major awards. Clearly a conflict of interest that can be a problem. When you think about it froma business standpoint it makes for great marketing to buy koi from a certain breeder then invited them to judge these same koi and help promote themselves and their koi for future sales. If I was taking koi to a show and the head judge was breeder XXXXX I would be smart to take my breeder XXXXX koi to compete in that show. I am not saying that the breeder is dishonest. Just that he likes his own koi's characteristics - so they have an advantage. I see this when there is a dealer based show. They invite their favorite breeders to judge and put on koi seminars just good business and marketing not saying results are fixed or rigged just baised.

I would hope that all judges act professionally and earn respect based on their abilities and actions. Hobbyist Organization judges (ZNA, AKCA, BKKS, etc.) are restricted from being involved in the koi business. Also these organizations rank koi on their appearance on the day judged not on how they used to look or how the breeder/dealers crystal ball perceives they could look in the future.

[dick benbow]

i TAKE A LOT OF PRIDE IN THE PROFESSIONAL WAY WE PREPARE A SHOW FOR THE JUDGES AS HEAD OF THE BENCHING CREWS.

The koi are handled professionally, categorized correctly, and when the judges are ready to roll so is the computer print out.

I think the comments about earning the respect is well founded. If you guys could have seen what Lester went thru to get from florida to Spokane when all the flights were cancelled re-routed etc and then to arrive a day late, without luggage and still carry off the show and be fun to be around, it would have given you a new respect for the man and the contribution and sacrifice they do for all of us!

[junglegeorge12]

good question aquitori.

Raises alot of ethical things that need adressing from time to time.

I think judges are involved in the profession, paid or not. Their words carry tremendous impact and affect buying decisions and the market, and they know it. They also have friends and lifelong aquaintances within the industry which warplanners would call 'alliances'. I think it is impossible to seperate them from 'the profession', simply due to the immense weight their comments carry and their relational alliances. Sometimes friendhsips are stronger than evidence, as we can plainly see on some threads here, right now.

I like Donald Rumsfeld's approach "Always have a special ops team in place and ready to go, and a long list of solutions for every 'What if'."

Or as a military friend of mine says ,"When the sh*t hits the fan, it is best not to be a peice of it!"

[James P]

Professional, an expert who provides a service or product for money. 2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>


PS if somone would like to pay the airfare for the next three shows I'm booked for before the end of the year may call me a professional! Otherwise I'm just a student in an amaetuer portion of the hobby. Not the distribution side but rather the consumer side of the industry.

[woodyaht]

Quote: Originally Posted by JR Professional, an expert who provides a service or product for money. 2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football> PS if somone would like to pay the airfare for the next three shows I'm booked for before the end of the year may call me a professional! Otherwise I'm just a student in an amaetuer portion of the hobby. Not the distribution side but rather the consumer side of the industry.

Jr, You seemed to have edited out the complete definition of the word professional as taken from your online dictionary source. I think that us "lamen" are more than likely, refering to #3 or maybe even 1 a,b,and c. below. I use the word professional as a generalization meaning expert, someone with extreme knowledge, etc, and I think that the hobbiest would agree, not everything has to be text book my friend. Most people would consider me a professional in my industry, even though I get paid to perform a service, I don't feel as though I am a "pro". So how we percieve ourselves is different than how others percieve us.



Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>
- pro·fes·sion·al·ly adverb

[James P]

Hey Chris, lets stop the ridicule with the Jr stuff ( the name is JR) and I'll be glad to have a conversation with you. But if your going to be yet another pain in the a** and just be an annoyance, please stop responding to my posts.


I left the first definition out because Professional in the koi industry is a koi breeder or koi dealer. This is why there are amateur organizations in Japan ( ZNA) and professional organizations in Japan ( Shinkokai) . I belong to ZNA as a certified judge. I do not belong to Shinkokai. Shinkokai would not let me join its organization even if they were to acknowledge me as some kind of an 'expert'. Likewise ZNA will not let a shinkokai be a voting eligable member.
In America we do not let professionals be officers of ZNA or club reps to AKCA. We do not allow professionals to be in the judging programs.
Word games are fun but to get a sense of reality I provided two definitions that bring in the 'for profit' element into the conversation. But my effort was to help those outside the hobby organizations to better understand the hobby and its evolution and not to play endless word games.

[woodyaht]

I applologize for the mis-type on my part, that was not a jab at you it was a mistake on my part. Calm down!

I am not trying to split words with ya, just as I said, how we percieve ourselves is different than how others percieve us. When I take my fish to a show, I am looking for a "professional" opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by JR Hey Chris, lets stop the ridicule with the Jr stuff ( the name is JR) and I'll be glad to have a conversation with you. But if your going to be yet another pain in the a** and just be an annoyance, please stop responding to my posts. I left the first definition out because Professional in the koi industry is a koi breeder or koi dealer. This is why there are amateur organizations in Japan ( ZNA) and professional organizations in Japan ( Shinkokai) . I belong to ZNA as a certified judge. I do not belong to Shinkokai. Shinkokai would not let me join its organization even if they were to acknowledge me as some kind of an 'expert'. Likewise ZNA will not let a shinkokai be a voting eligable member. In America we do not let professionals be officers of ZNA or club reps to AKCA. We do not allow professionals to be in the judging programs. Word games are fun but to get a sense of reality I provided two definitions that bring in the 'for profit' element into the conversation. But my effort was to help those outside the hobby organizations to better understand the hobby and its evolution and not to play endless word games.

[James P]

OK fine, based on the disrespectful way you described me in a previous post I thought you were projecting again- I'll accept it as a typo and my over reaction.


I am not a professional and I don't know a single koi judge who would describe themselves as a professional. We are at best advanced students and since there is already a definition in place for others in this hobby as professionals, it would be wholely inappropriate to think of us as such. We do become experts at the mechanics of the show, the odd ball decisions that come up in American koi shows and the ranking of a number of fish based on a trained eye. But compared to true professionals like the top 100 breeders of Japan, we are rank amateurs.
I honestly see the amateur judge as an art critic of sorts. And the breeder is the artist. The word professional would be the art dealer- selling paintings/sclupters of their own or others.