Butterfly 'koi' are they koi????

[Valarc]

Deformed monstrosities? The long fins come from interbreeding with indonesian carp which were found in ditches with naturally long fins. No one selectively bred these carp to have long fins.

I would think a kohaku would be more of a monstrosity by that line of thinking... they were selectively bred to have very UNNATURAL features which were appealing to their owners. You could say the same thing about a doistu, but that's still called a koi.

[JosephandGabby]

Most of the "koi experts" I've spoken with who pay over $10,000 for show quality koi disregard butterfly or long-fin koi as inferior. In my opinion, however, I actually prefer butterfly koi because - all things being equal - I actually think a fish looks prettier with long fins. It all comes down to a matter of taste. I doubt the big-time breeders from Japan will ever consider longfins to be on par with tradional koi, but I also know a lot of pond owners in the U.S. who prefer longfin koi. I have both standard fin and butterfly koi in my pond because I like having a mix. It is worth mentioning, however, that here in the U.S. most pet stores and koi hatcheries sell butterfly koi at a higher price than standard fin koi. I guess koi ponders in the U.S. have different taste than pond owner elsewhere in the world. That's my two cents...

Joseph
http://www.josephandgabby.com/pond

[butterfly]

Quote: Originally Posted by D@z My mind isnt closed m8, yes my language was harsh, but that is what I think of them and what I feel when I see one. There is no point me using less harsh words because that would be lying. As I said earlier, having 2 heads would be different and interesting but thats not right either. You say you like them because they are different to koi but I dont want different to koi, I want koi, why look for something thats different if I'm REALLY into koi? I would like to see some evidence that Japanese KOI breeders 'respect' them, as that is most deffinitely not what I have seen. I'm most deffinitely not alone in my opinion of them over here, I can post links to others comments as eveidence if you doubt that.

Butterfly Koi is a true American invention. They are the most beautiful of all ornamental fishes. I am not surprised in the japanese distaste for them and perhaps british too. We don't care about their taste. They also think four feet Momotaro Koi is beautiful!! Could be for a big Sushi party..

[bekko]

Personally, I do not like butterflys. They look pretty good when they are small, but the fins invariably become tattered and ragged in larger fish and, thus, have no future. Also, they all seem to have fore-shortened heads which become more prominent and distracting as they grow.

However, I think that if the long-fin carp had been developed in 19th Century Japan, instead of Indonesia, it would be a different story. If it was their own creation, the Japanese may have enbraced the long-fin and their acceptance of the fish would have been transferred to the rest of the world.

-steveh opkins

[Brutuscz]

D@z..your discussing apples and oranges here. They are different and beautiful...not different and freakish as a 2 headed koi would appear. There are some respected breeders, such as yamazaki, that are breeding them. If you check the april2000 koiusa interview with Shinoda...he discusses a giant hi utsuri butterfly koi that was a breeder for Suda....so there is 2 more!!!! So...the breeders who respect butterfly koi do exist!!!!

[Lee B]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Personally, I do not like butterflys. They look pretty good when they are small, but the fins invariably become tattered and ragged in larger fish and, thus, have no future. Also, they all seem to have fore-shortened heads which become more prominent and distracting as they grow. However, I think that if the long-fin carp had been developed in 19th Century Japan, instead of Indonesia, it would be a different story. If it was their own creation, the Japanese may have enbraced the long-fin and their acceptance of the fish would have been transferred to the rest of the world. -steveh opkins

What you call "tattered", I call "fringed" As the fish gets older, the pecs adapt this look, even in the most gentle, kindest environment. I kinda liked fringed jackets when they were popular, too. Perhaps Yanks are more accepting of the butterfly because we're basically more open to diversity, to the "unusual", and see the beauty in the animal for what it's worth - not expecting it to conform to someone else's pigeon-holed definition.

I have both: a smallish pond for the butterflies (and shortfins if they need a gentle place to recoup), and a larger pond for the "koi". My husband refers to the butterflies as the "good fish" - in his photographer's eye, they're more graceful, serene and elegant in the water. Koi are more massive, stronger, fighters (salmon in a pretty coat!).

It is a matter of opinion and taste, pure and simple.

Lee

[JosephandGabby]

Who cares whether or not Japanese breeders "respect" butterfly koi or not? I sure don't! Honestly, I think a lot of Japanese breeders look down on butterfly koi because they didn't originate from Japan. They deem any koi - and yes, butterfly koi are still koi - as being inferior if they didn't come from Japan. Like it not, in the next decade or so the popularity for butterfly koi is only going to increase. I like traditional koi as well, but I don't necessarily think they are better than butterfly koi just because they've been available longer. Some koi traditionalists only like showas and kohakus and view anything else as inferior. Most pond owners, however, only care about having pretty fish in their ponds. Nothing is more beautiful in a backyard pond than seeing a mixture of colorful fish - even if some of them fail to conform to a particular label. I'm an American so I guess I have American taste when it comes to koi. I've chatted with a lot of pond owners in the UK and in Asia, however, who also appreciate butterfly koi. I just wanted to point out that Daz does not necessarily speak for every pond owner outside the US. Anyone who honestly believes that longfin koi are not koi is wrong - plain and simple. If you were to look at a koi from 100 years ago it would look very different compared to koi you see today. The definition of koi is changing, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. There's room in koi keeping for all types of koi. I've seen some prized Japanese koi that didn't look very impressive to me, so a lot of this comes down to individual taste...

Joseph
http://www.josephandgabby.com/pond

[jnorth]

Geez this is so not worth argueing about....but I think simply put most peoples take on longfins has more to do with their outlook on the hobby then anything else. Seems to me that most people that are in it to show pretty much disregard them. After all, your pond only has space for so many koi. Why use up that space with a koi that is not show quality or limited at best? Thats why I have a seperate pond for my wifes longfins. Those that just enjoy their pond in the back yard seem to really like longfins. Why? Because I can tell you from experience that when non-koi people come over they will ohh and ahh over the longfins before they even notice the regular koi. Of course when they look at the regular koi at my place they always stare at the pretty "yellow fish". My point is that unless you are in it to show you might actually want one as it really draws a crowd. For the age old question of is it a koi? I would say no it is not. Is it part of the carp family? Yup. Maybe it should have its own classification since its not a standard carp nor a standard koi. Think about it. You wouldn't call a Doberman a German Sheppard just because they are both dogs would you?

[JosephandGabby]

I agree with Jim that most non-koi people notice longfins long before they notice standard-fin koi. It's definitely not worth arguing about. Thanks again, Jim, for giving me the info for Mystic Koi. I have both butterfly and standard fin koi in my pond, but I guess I don't have a preference when it comes to my own koi. I picked them all so it's kind of like choosing one of your kids over another. You love them all the same. Longfins and butterfly koi do catch my eye, however, whenever I go looking for new fish to add to my ponds...

-Joseph

[Valarc]

Jim,
I think your analogy was a bit off... the word koi as we use it in the west is to refer to nishikigoi. Are longfins nishikigoi? I'd say no. BUT the word "goi" which is the source of the sound in our little abbreviation just means carp, and the japanese word for longfins includes the word "goi" as well.

I would say it's more a matter of lost in translation - we use koi to mean a specific type of goi, and it has become such common usage that it's accepted. I would say "koi" should be the equivalent of "dog" and the various varieties should be the breeds. But, the usage is already pretty well established and at the end of the day it all comes down to your interpretation.

Of course, someone is gonna say I'm just a stupid newbie and don't know what I'm talking about - but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it