Butterfly 'koi' are they koi????

[JosephandGabby]

Good point, Valarc. In the end, they're all just fancy looking carp...right? Check that...expensive fancy looking carp...

Joseph

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valarc Jim, I think your analogy was a bit off... the word koi as we use it in the west is to refer to nishikigoi. Are longfins nishikigoi? I'd say no. BUT the word "goi" which is the source of the sound in our little abbreviation just means carp, and the japanese word for longfins includes the word "goi" as well. I would say it's more a matter of lost in translation - we use koi to mean a specific type of goi, and it has become such common usage that it's accepted. I would say "koi" should be the equivalent of "dog" and the various varieties should be the breeds. But, the usage is already pretty well established and at the end of the day it all comes down to your interpretation. Of course, someone is gonna say I'm just a stupid newbie and don't know what I'm talking about - but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it

I should explain my analogy a little better.

Perhaps a family tree from my point of view would make it easier to explain (at least it would for me). And btw don't put yourself down. We are all entitled to opinions. We all as a group should stop taking this stuff personally and discuss these things in a manner thats as peaceful as the fish we discuss (thats my opinion anyway )

Carp species

|............................. |

Koi ................Longfin sub species

| .......................................|

Kohaku Showa Sanke etc .................Kohaku Showa Sanke etc varieties

Dog species

|

Doberman ............German Sheppard.............. Poodle ..sub species

|.....................|

miniature............ full size varieties

Dogs clearly dont have the varieties that carp do but I think you get my drift. Feel free to disagree I don't mind at all.


Edit- I cant seem to get the "trees" to look right. Every time I edit the formatting reverts back to something else..Sorry

[ChrisC]

D@Z--a number of American dealers have told me that if it were not for longfins, they would not be in business--so one factor is that people enjoying those fish help us enjoy our standard koi.

I bought one long fin earlier in my hobby, and I enjoy looking at her, even though her body conformation has gone to hell. She is also the only fish who has really mastered the demand feeder, so if I banish her from the pond, I think the other fish might have some big adjustments to make!!

Young Longfins have terrific finnage and dramatic barbels often. The relationship with the water is different than for fan-finned fish. I can see why artistic people like them better. I don't see them as mutants, any more than ALL koi are mutants (they are!)

However, now that I am more seriously into this hobby, I would not buy another. I have seen the lovely finnage of young longfins get ragged and unpleasing, which is not a look that I like.

I heard that the Japanese Emperor this year made a gift of a number of Longfins to the President of Indonesia. Could we be looking at a resurgence in the longfin breeders of Japan???

[Bern]

Interesting that you brought up the Emperor. Here's a pic of a pond within the Imperial Palace. I understand that these were a gift to the Emperor.
You used to be able to find this pic on the Japanese Tourist Board website.

But back to the original debate. There is a massive difference in quality between American longfins and the ones on sale over here. After seeing them in San Diego in 2001 my other half went looking for one over here, but never found one of any qualit. I have to say I was glad about that as they (US versions included) do nothing for me.

rgds BERN

[D@z]

This is more like it, an interesting debate with many very valid points. I'll have to read it all properly when I get home from work later.

[schildkoi]

First off Val, you're wrong...Butterflies didn't just happen and found in an indonesian ditch. Depending on which story you want , the indonesian carp (which had long fins) was crossed with Nishikigoi to help make them hardier. The experiment failed and was abandoned as such but Suda kept breeding them...but ....and this is where Brutus is wrong, never recognized them as Koi either but found a niche market for these different type of fish. The other story has Blueridge hatchery in the US inventing longfins from crossing Koi with Shubunkins as I recall?

For those that go to Japan, just check with the breeders and see if you can find 1 that actually recognizing them as Koi....yes, they may "call" them butterfly koi but when asked if they are Koi or not, I would challenge anyone to find a single Japanese Breeder that would make that statement...and afterall, they did "invent" Koi and have the ultimate right to determine what is and what is not a Koi.

As Brett said, call them what you want, they still are not Koi....genetically or otherwise....this does NOT mean that I don't like them though.

Steve

[Valarc]

Maybe I worded it poorly - what I meant to say was that the long fins existed in the species without human intervention. Of course, adding those long fins to our own already carefully controlled mutants was an intentional move.

[Valarc]

Woohoo I get to correct Steve

From the blue ridge website... http://www.blueridgekoi.com/About%20BFK.htm

"First, let me state that they are not a hybrid of goldfish or koi as many people believe. "

The blue ridge variety also come from the indonesian longfinned carp.

[aquitori]

My question is to this thread, are Longfins more resistant to disease? Also I have seen longfins in the 25-26" range, kinda cool looking.

[schildkoi]

But you will notice my "?" at the end since the story today is different than 8-10 years ago from Blue ridge Be careful "correcting" us old timers

Steve