Butterfly 'koi' are they koi????

[Bern]

At the recent Dutch show an exhibitor brought some longfins along. They weren't entered into the show but remained in the vats(tanks) for the duration of the show.

I pointed one out to a Japanese Judge (Keisuke Karube) because I wanted to get some further insight in their way of thinking. He just pulled a face and said "Hiranaga", the term they use for them. We (Brits) have taken to refering to them as Hiranaga Koi, but it was very noticeable that he didn't use the term Koi.

From a discussion with Japanese Judges (at the same show) two years earlier about their exclusion by the ZNA, my understanding is that they are viewed as hybrids, as in a hybrid species, in the same way as Koi x Goldfish are.

From the British perspective, the jury is still out as far as their origins are concerned. The other stumbling block is 'Standards'. There are currently no standards for Longfin koi. If you look at the Goldfish world there are definate standards for singletail fish e.g. Comets, Common Goldfish and Bristol Shubunkins in relation to their finnage. At the moment, and even taking into account the obvious advances with LF's in America, any fish with overlength fins is classified as a LF. Without some standards to compare with I don't see how they can every be judged, and therefore be accepted into a show.

rgds
Bern

[Bern]

Regarding the Doitsu vs Longfin comment in an earlier thread.


I can't buy into the the 'similarity' theory yet.

Doitsu was a cultivated genetic mutation of the same species.

Indonesian Carp ? - There is still far too much conflicting information about their origins & species to make that comparison. Until some formal biological classification of these species is made the jury must remain out.

rgds
Bern

[Fishbreeder]

Perhaps in perception the crossbred fish called a butterfly or longfin koi is a "hybrid". But technically it is not a hybrid.

Longfin and koi are both the same species and thier offspring are fertilie. They are definately not a hybrid. Still not a koi either.

Brett

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz I didn't say "grow" did I?? This is really becoming a matter of semantics....and I don't see the point. I don't know why everyone is so protective of a word (Koi, nishikigoi..etc)?!?! My point of mentioning the mutation factor is because d@z mentions that butterfly koi are a horrible mutation of koi....well, the koi we all love, are a mutation of carp. So..it's a ridiculous statement. Now..you pushed a button mentioning indonesion carp. Well...by that rationale...doitsu are not koi either...as we know they are bred with german mirror carp!!! So..now you've dug yourself a hole. If butterfly koi are not koi...then neither are doitsu!!! I can't wait to hear someone defend this one!!! I am including these 2 pictures from pan intercorp...just to annoy everyone!!! Once again...dont enjoy them or anything...hideous monsters that they are!!!

I never said doitsu were or were not koi. I don't have to. All the sanctioning bodies call them koi. Ever notice though that when it comes to doitsu they would not be called a kohaku but a doitsu kohaku? Thats because its a different variety.

I'm sorry if you can't understand that someone else is entitled to think differently then you. D@z doesn't like them and he thinks they are ugly. Not a big deal. You don't see me complaining about it and I own about 30 longfins!

I'm done with this thread.

[JosephandGabby]

I don't want to offend anyone, so if I do offend anyone with this post - I apologize in advance. Daz, you stated that you find the breeding of butterfly koi to be "hideous and cruel." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But at the same time, there is nothing more hideous and cruel about breeding butterfly koi than there is about breeding kohaku, doitsu or any other type of koi. All koi, butterfly and standard fin, were more-less engineered by man over years of selective breeding to help encourage mutations in colors, scalation, etc. The breeding of butterfly koi is no different than the breeding of standard fin carp. A lot of koi enthusiasts and pond owners find butterfly koi to be quite beautiful; every bit as beautiful as standard koi and in some cases even more so. Whether you choose to call butterfly koi "koi" or not; it really doesn't matter. A lot of people like them and they're here to stay. We can argue about this topic forever, but in the end - all we're talking about here is colored carp! Personally, I love both butterfly and standard fin koi. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other just because it's been around longer and has a "standard." If you prefer one type over the other, so be it. But, if I were to have posted a string saying how I find standard fin carp to hideous and cruel mutations I'm sure I'd get more than a few angry responses. My main point is this - who cares!?! I like butterfly koi. I consider them to be koi and always will. The people who view them as something other than koi will never change their minds either. So in the end all we're talking about here is a label. Whatever you choose to call them, there is no denying they are extremely popular here in the states. Most of the koi owners I associate with could care less whether or not their beloved butterfly koi are deemed show worthy or even if they're considered koi at all by Japanese breeders. Come on people - we're arguing about fish here!!! http://www.josephandgabby.com/pond

I'm done with this thread too...

-Joseph

[Valarc]

Brutuscz,
Adding three exclamation points to the end of every sentence makes you look childish and takes away any credibility your argument might have. I kind of agree with what you're saying, but the way you're saying it makes me want to change sides.

Go to a koi show and walk around with Steve after the judging. He's a great guy and will take plenty of time describing, in detail, why each fish placed where it did. And without fail, one of the key features he's going to mention on the big winners is body conformation. That is, the SHAPE of the fish fitting a certain style is a huge factor in what makes them a good nishikigoi. THAT is why a doitsu is still nishikigoi, and a butterfly is not. A doitsu still matches the correct shape.

Now please, learn to hold a conversation like an adult and drop the "na-na you're wrong and i know it neener neener" nonsense.

[schildkoi]

No one is being protective of the word "Koi" but are simply trying to point out the differences between a butterfly and a "Koi" (Nishikigoi). Cut the fins, change the body shape and you'd be in the ballpark, but they are still genetically different. I actually LIKE longfins...but still understand that they are not "Koi". I also judge both and have that same understanding when attempting to compare both.

Steve

[D@z]

Maybe it's another difference in our cultures or maybe it's just me but a couple of people have refered to this as 'argument' etc. I see a good debate amongst people who have different opinions. Nobody is falling out here, we are simply voicing our personal opinions. Dont take it so personally, we are all adults who share a common interest. If we all had the same opinion this discussion forum would be a very dull place.

Just out of interest, and this is probably not the perfect time to ask , does anyone live or know of any hobbiests or even outlets etc in the NC area, particularly Pinehurst, Laurinburg, Southern Pines. I work out there quite regularly and would love to come and see your set-ups and share a cold one. I'm often there for a few weeks at a time, often alone, and have often thought about asking in the past.

[Tony Prew]

Obviously some Japanese Koi Breeders have decided these species are worthy of their efforts as they are now producing large numbers with traditional Koi patterns such as Gosanke, Gin Rin Gosanke, Tancho Varieties, Hi Utsuri, Shusui, Hariwake, Ochiba, Kumonryu, Ogon of various color. Like them or not they are here to stay and gaining in momentum in the marketplace. Breeders would not bother if they did see some value in their efforts. Remember back when the Beatles first graced American shores, What if they had been percieved as just some rebellious,long haired,sreaming deviates dressed in funny suits. Everyone should be more openminded to new and different as it has been trend of the times. Don't miss understand me. I have allways loved the Beatles. Many people love their longfins. So if you don't like them don't put them in your pond , but let's stop bashing them like their something spawned by the devil !!!!!

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by D@z Just out of interest, and this is probably not the perfect time to ask , does anyone live or know of any hobbiests or even outlets etc in the NC area, particularly Pinehurst, Laurinburg, Southern Pines. I work out there quite regularly and would love to come and see your set-ups and share a cold one. I'm often there for a few weeks at a time, often alone, and have often thought about asking in the past.

Don't know anybody in that area but if you find yourself in the Washington DC area be sure to let me know. I'd be happy to have you over.