Butterfly 'koi' are they koi????

[D@z]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Don't know anybody in that area but if you find yourself in the Washington DC area be sure to let me know. I'd be happy to have you over.

I sometimes fly to Washington but more often than not its Chicago/Raleigh-Durham.

I had a look at your website before, very nice site. I printed out your bacci experiments as I'm in the process of building a new pond specifically for showers. Very interesting stuff indeed. I'd be interested to see the results if you pumped directly over them with no other filtration, just to see if the bead filter is still doing anything. I'm pumping straight from bottom drains to mine, about 3000 gallons an hour over each shower direct from the drains and 1500 gallons an hour from each skimmer to the showers via static K1. (figures in Uk gallons).

I'll let you know if I ever get to Washington again, if you promise to let me leave alive , maybe seeing your longfins in the flesh might change my opinion of them too.

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by D@z I sometimes fly to Washington but more often than not its Chicago/Raleigh-Durham. I had a look at your website before, very nice site. I printed out your bacci experiments as I'm in the process of building a new pond specifically for showers. Very interesting stuff indeed. I'd be interested to see the results if you pumped directly over them with no other filtration, just to see if the bead filter is still doing anything. I'm pumping straight from bottom drains to mine, about 3000 gallons an hour over each shower direct from the drains and 1500 gallons an hour from each skimmer to the showers via static K1. (figures in Uk gallons). I'll let you know if I ever get to Washington again, if you promise to let me leave alive , maybe seeing your longfins in the flesh might change my opinion of them too.

I might try that next year with my Bakki. I have run out of good enough weather to properly test it this year. Plus I still need to add a settlement chamber. It never ends .

I doubt my longfins would change your mind as none of them are recognizable copies of regular koi varieties (longfin mutts haha). I did have a flock spawn this year in the longfin pond and of all the fry one of them has a very nice 2 step kohaku pattern so I will be keeping that one just to see what happens. I promise I'll let you live if you ever come by .

[Brutuscz]

Hi All...The reason I am posting these pictures is remind everyone how beautiful these koi really are. Look at that utsuri butterfly...I would love that in my pond. As far as the discussion..I fully understand genetics and mutation. Spent enough classroom time studying it for one lifetime. Still...no one has really answered my question. If a butterfly is not a koi because it was crossbred with a longfin carp....then a doitsu is not a koi because it is crossbred with a german mirror carp. One has a mutation of the fins, one has a mutation of the skin. The type of mutation is insignificant....it is the fact that it is crossbred with something different is the issue that matters. In my opinion...you can't have it both ways. If you say a butterfly is not a koi, then you must also conclude that a doitsu is not a "true" koi either.

[Valarc]

I already explained this. A doitsu has the SHAPE of a koi, therefore it can be classed differently than longfins. It's not the fact that they are mutants - it's the fact that they don't match the definition of a nishikigoi.

[schildkoi]

Body shape is differnt on Longfins as well. Scalation (Doitsu) is a "mutation" so to speak within the same fish (Common Carp), as is Gin Rin, as is metallic sheen, etc. Body shapes are totally different with Longfins as well as the finnage itself due to the genetics (from varying species) as you understand. If I cross a Ford and a Lincoln, I get a Mercury...but still all a Ford product....but its not a Chevy, nor even a GM and never will/can be.

Steve

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by D@z You are getting a little childish now with all the pictures and sarcasm but I'll respond to this comment. You dont seem to appreciate that ALL living things descend from a single cell. If you want to be proper, EVER LIVING THING is a mutation of one or more others. At some point, a new 'mutation' establishes itself (or is established) and becomes an entity in its own right. Koi are descendants of other fish, of course they are, they dont just suddenly appear!!! But they are now established in their own right, they have standards by which they are judged, they are classified and the type has been given the name nishikigoi. Breeding them with something outside of this class has produced another type, one which I find hideous and cruel, but more importantly, one which is outside the standard and is NOT a nishikigoi any more. Its a mutation of a nishikigoi, genetically engineered to be 'different'. If you understood anything of evolution you would see my statement is not in fact ridiculous as you claim but quite correct. Like the hideous things that happened to goldfish and the cruel production of deformed goldfish for peoples satisfaction, it is not right and I dont wnat to see it happen to koi. If it carries on we will water the hobby down and in years to come we will be flooded with these things and their health problems and short life cycles, just as we see with 'fancy' goldfish now.

D@z..I want to point out that you are wrong on this last fact...the addition of "new" genetics into the mix will make a hardier fish. A smaller gene pool will be more likely to cause health problems and shorter life cycles. If you truly understood the science of genetics, you certainly would have known this to be true. Same rules apply to humans, dogs..and most other species. Inbreeding, linebreeding...or a small gene pool can all lead to future problems.
I would like to see you hit the books on evolution and genetics again...maybe get a better understanding of genetics before making very false statements.
The only thing I find hideous and cruel is when people try to discuss subjects they obviously don't understand. Sorry kid...I'm a doctor...you're not going to baffle anyone here with a line of b*llsh*t!!!

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valarc I already explained this. A doitsu has the SHAPE of a koi, therefore it can be classed differently than longfins. It's not the fact that they are mutants - it's the fact that they don't match the definition of a nishikigoi.

So by this rationale...If I breed a longfin and a standard koi...and the offspring is split...some with longfins, some with short (hypothetically).....then the shortfins are still koi, but not the longfins? Although they are from the same parents and same genetics? I can tell you this argument is not scientific at all...simply cosmetic. It really makes the definition of koi very arbitrary. Then at exactly what fin length is the cutoff? One millimeter under is a koi, and one millimeter over is a butterfly and not a koi? Makes no sense at all.

[Valarc]

Who said the argument was scientific? Before the kennel clubs started registering parents to prove that dogs had pure bloodlines, they were classified based on appearance. Maybe one day koi parents will be registered and certified too, but until that day all we have to base things on is appearance.

Nishikigoi is not a scientific classification - it is a term used by a group of people who developed a certain style of fish. Nothing more, nothing less. It is up to that group of people to decide what fish the word applies to. If I bred my two cats and got a purple cat, and I started up a professional organization for the judging of purple cats, and called them "Valarcats" it would be up to me and my organization to determine what qualifies as a Valarcat. The people who invented the word Nishikigoi have decided on a set of characteristics which fit that word - doitsu fit those characteristics and butterflies do not. How much clearer can it be? Perhaps one day folks will convince them that a butterfly also deserves the title Nishikigoi, perhaps not. The term never was, and never will be, a scientific one.

[Bern]

Let's step back from the term Longfin for the moment.

My understanding is that LF's are a cross between an Indonesian Carp and a Koi. The problem is - is the Indonesian Carp a variant or a sub-species of Cyprinus Carpio? Steve says "Nay", Brett say "Yea". If the "Nays" win then they are a hybrid species. If not, then they are Koi. Then looking at the examples of LF Sanke and LF Shusui that have been provided on this thread I'd have no problem adding the prefix Nishiki.

Indonesian Carp need to be classified by a recognised Taxonomist for this debate to be resolved. That I believe is the stumbling block for the ZNA.

If they do get welcomed to the fold, the next step would be 'Show Standards'. Would they be a seperate class like Ginrin, would we have A and B for Go-sanke and Non? What would be a good longfin vs a poor one?
etc etc.

We live in interesting times.

rgds BERN

[D@z]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz D@z..I want to point out that you are wrong on this last fact...the addition of "new" genetics into the mix will make a hardier fish. A smaller gene pool will be more likely to cause health problems and shorter life cycles. If you truly understood the science of genetics, you certainly would have known this to be true. Same rules apply to humans, dogs..and most other species. Inbreeding, linebreeding...or a small gene pool can all lead to future problems. I would like to see you hit the books on evolution and genetics again...maybe get a better understanding of genetics before making very false statements. The only thing I find hideous and cruel is when people try to discuss subjects they obviously don't understand. Sorry kid...I'm a doctor...you're not going to baffle anyone here with a line of b*llsh*t!!!

Not all your theory is flawed but I'm not talking theory with regards the 'fancy' goldfish, I'm talking facts. They become more and more deformed as they age, they die younger, they are more susceptible to ill health in general.

Oh and sorry kid, but I'm a scientist, and that makes me better placed to talk evolution and genetics than a medic. If you want to go heavy down that route we can but I'm not really interested in bringing science in to my hobby if possible. I try to leave that stuff at work and enjoy the hobby at the ground level hence why I haven't resorted to pages of jargon that wouold mean nothing to a lot of people.

As already posted above, comparing a skin type change with a body shape change is not even close. By that reconing each colour should be a different entity too as they all have different skin.